[Drugmachine]

Originally Posted by asitaraman Originally Posted by Idiappam What are the eights?

If I remember right, I think this has roots in Sri Rudram which is part of the Yajur Veda. I read somewhere that it refers to the 8 major Leelaigal of Shiva quoted in Sri Rudram as:

Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman Dear Sitaraman,

1. Siva worship has its roots in the Tamil Country - not in the Vedas. Vedas knew no 'Siva'!

2. Yajur veda is all about Homa sacrifice - the rituals, formalities the chanting etc - the Rudra of the Vedas is certainly not the Siva of the Tamils.

3. Sri Rudram is said to the 'part' of the Yajur Veda... - there are a few version of the Yajur Veda. The Sri Rudram is never in existence in any Vedas - Yajur or otherwise. Sri Rudram was written centuries after Vedas were written (Rig Vedas 600 BCE).. - Artharvan (200CE). The artharvan was written after Manu - as Manu only refers to 3 (THREE) vedas.

4. It has always been difficult to date Sanskritic Literature, as the Sanskritists kept their 'scriptures' secretly - as is was considered 'polluting' if the lower-castes read them. Most of the Sanskrit Literature has no author - so a legendry or mythical person is said to have composed them - giving the impression that they were written 'a long time ago'.. They could have been written fair recently.

5. Sri Rudram - by taking a glance at its language - seems to be far from the Vedas - probably written after Appar.

Anyway, coming back to the point -- Appar was of the view that the Lord (Siva) was there. in Thiruvaarur' long before the 'Eights' were known.

In the earlier verse Appar says that the Lord (Siva) was already there in the Tamil Country - Thiruvaarur, long before the Vedas were unfolded.

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--- Appar 6.34.8

=======Going back to Appar on Thiruvaathirai celebration at Thiruvarur..... According to many scholars, the Sri Rudram is part of Yajur Veda so is Purusha Shooktam (there is another version in the Rig Verda). There is a "Pancha Rudram" in the Rig Veda too but the one that is in use today as Sri Rudram is the one which is from Yajur Veda. Btw, it is often thought the Vedas somehow had a sequence in their appearance (like you have pointed out). This is also seems incorrect as Rig Veda seems to have references to Yajur and other Vedas (see the Rig version of Purusha Shooktam-- the 10th mandala and the 19th hymn); if that is so, how can the Rig appear before? It is surprising that you say that language is different from Yajur Veda-- this is absolutely not true. The word Siva itself is Sanskrit which could mean kindness, peace, benevolence, calm, beauty, etc. The date of Sri Rudram that you have quoted is also incorrect.

Before the fourteenth day war of the Mahabharatha, when Arjuna is about to go to war to avenge the death of Abhimanyu, Krishna takes him via a dream to Shivaloka to seek Pashupatha. Arjuna had already learnt the Pashupatha from Shiva during the Kidararjuna episode but has forgotten it. Shiva asks them to go to a location and fetch the arrow and return. When they reach the spot, the see innumerable number of barriers such as snakes and other awesome creatures. Krishna sings the Sri Rudram (saying that this is from the Yajur Veda) and pacifies all these creatures to move away. This cannot be done without doctoring many texts (Yajur Veda, Mahabharatha, etc). Since we were an oral tradition, every school memorizing these texts had to be updated; which is an impossibility.

"Yajus" is derived from "yaj" which means worship just as "yagna" which means sacrifical worship. Yajur Veda is meant to provide form to Rig Vedic hyms (rig means hymn in praise). There are many references from Yajur to Rig. There are two forms of Yajur-- Sukla (white) Yajur and Krishna (Black) Yajur.

Contrary to what you said about the lack of names for Sanskrit texts, here is some information. When Veda Vyasa classified the Vedas, there was only one form. He later taught Yajur Veda to his pupil Vaisampayana. Vaisampayan taught it to his pupil Yagnavalkya. When Vaisampayana and Yagnavalkya had a misunderstanding, Vaisamoayana asked his pupil to return what he learnt which was acqueised. Later, Yagnavalkya prayed to Surya (the Sun) who accepted him as a pupil and taught him Yajur Veda which came to be called Vaajasaneyi or Sukla Yajur Veda. Since this was called Sukla, the one taught by Vaisampayana came to be known as Krishna Yajur Veda. Also, Yajur Veda is not just about yagnas. The Brahadaranyaka and Thaitreya Upanishad have roots in Yajur Veda as is the philosophy of Advaitha.

I dont want to labor the point whether Shiva worship existed only in Tamil land and was not found or the question of "caste" or otherwise in the Vedas. Nor do I want to debate whether Tamil is superior to Sanskrit. I respect both languages and see them as inherent part of Indian history and culture. That discussion will clearly rathole us indefinitely. There are numerous references to Shiva in the Vedas and we can agree to disagree on that score.

Appar swamigal's question is when the temple at Arur originated. In fact he has clearly made it a question "munno pinno" and never took the view that it happened before as you suggest.

My reply is to what the "eights" were about and that is the reference to Sri Rudram which explains what the "eights" were. As far as I know, there is no other reference to what the "eights" were before Appar. Since, Appar referenced them, he knew what the "eights" were.

There are other interesting correlations too. Sri Rudram says:

Kagupaya Nishangunae Sthataenunam Pathayae namo nama
Nishangina Ishthimathae Thaskaranam Pathayae namo nama

which means "He is the Lord of even thieves who carry swords. He is the Lord of those who carry bows, arrows, and robbers." While this can seem odd, if we look at what Sambandar says "En Ullum Kavur Kalvun" he introduces a new concept of the God being a thief (of his heart), it would seem that what both are talking about is that Parameshwara is the the leader of even men with the hardest heart and is capable of changing them to his side (on the side of righteousness). Hence in "Avananri Yoranannv..." Thevaram, Sambandar says that Shiva appeals to them in the form that His followers take even if it means that he becomes a theif so His followers reach Him. He does not differentiate between His followers and accords them the same treatment -- of love, compassion, and help.

Appar says this beautifully in this Thevaram "Maipadintha Kannulanganung Kachhi" just as Sri Ruram says "Mahatya Kshallakaeyachae Vo Namo Nama". Essence of both is that The Lord does not distinguish between a lerned saint or an illeterate, one with money or without, one with beauty and one without-- He loves them both and is present in all. Thayumanavar asks "Yavur Siriyavar, yavur periyavar, yadu munaiyandri mundo?"

Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman