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**excholza** · 07-11-2012, 07:12 AM

"Let us not give up the habit of meeting with one another."

We need each other, Robert. Nobody can pull the cart alone, and if you're going to try - it's just going to destroy you. Christianity is not designed to work as individuals, we are the Body of Christ. We need each other.

I didn't say we don't.
self-quote: "we can learn from eachother of course, and some may know mroe then others"
But getting together is something completely different then having a full-scale world size feudalistic hierarchy.

As for the heirarchy - Timothy is pretty clear that there exists a heirarchy of episcopai, (bishops), presbyteroi, (priests) and deacons. The threefold structure is biblical.

different positions is not the same as a hierarchy.
We also have deacons, elders, etc. in our church, but it's not a hierarchy.

So you'd throw out the Nicaean Creed? The Athanasian Creed?

As having authority? yes.

Then why not keep the old?

old generations make as much errors as new generations. Keeping old traditional texts as doctrine piles up the errors of the past. The RCC has clear examples of wrong doctrines of the past that the church can't get around now b/c they're authoritive now: Mary always a virgin, celibate, anti conception, to name just a few.
The first is based on a translation error in the first version of the Vulgate, for crying out loud, it has been corrected in the later versions, but the doctrine remains b/c it has been set one day and can never be changed after that.

So now the RCC is not only dealing with the errors of todays generation, but also with the errors of the past generations. Use the past as a point of reference but never as an authorized source. Never, b/c the people of the past made as many errors as the people now. And even the most holy pope was only a fallable human being.

If the culture is not getting better, what is the imperative to change?

be a greek with the greek and a jew with the jews.
Why? b/c we have a message for them. Not a moral legal bunch of rules.

Well, I'm a bit disappointed. You were a Christian, once, Robert. I remember. We used to write back and forth on these matters.

Christianity isn't about morals but about salvation.
It's not about trying to be a better man, but about acknowledging that you're a fallable man.
It's not about having faith in yourself to stop sinning, but about having faith in Christ.
It's not about telling other people about how wrong they are, but about how they can find help in Christ.
And everytime someone puts a focus on the first part of the above phrases, he's becoming a stand in the way for the 2nd part of the phrases, either for himself or for others.

Exactly. Which is why the Church should continue to teach that homosexuality is sinful.

Thanks to people like you non-christians think that christianity is all about being against gays. I bet you talk more about homosexuality then about Jesus Christ.
Thanks to people like you the gospel is a lost case for most gay people. If Paul would have been like you then no rich people and male humans would have been in the church today.

The Church never capitulated and taught that slavery was good, just because that is what the cultures of those times believed.

I'm not asking you to say that homosexuality is good, just adopt to it. The homosexuality of our times isn't the same as the homosexuality of Paul's time, or of Old Testament times. You can't copy and paste lines from ancient times to our times. Neither with slavery, neither with emancipation nor with homosexuality.

Neither should the Church capitulate on their fundamental teachings just because of what society in general believes.

So that's the fundamental teaching according to you?
See what happens when christians start to focus on the moral, they drift away from the real fundamental teaching: we are all sinners and should have faith in Christ, who must renew us.
Now it's all: "Renew yourself into my interpertation of the laws"

Sure, for now. This world is only temporary, Robert. If you live for this world, you'll die with it as well.
Better than Christ?

With whom was Jesus always arguing? With the sinners? No, with the know-all law preachers!

07-11-2012, 07:12 AM	#10
excholza Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 376 Senior Member	"Let us not give up the habit of meeting with one another." We need each other, Robert. Nobody can pull the cart alone, and if you're going to try - it's just going to destroy you. Christianity is not designed to work as individuals, we are the Body of Christ. We need each other. I didn't say we don't. self-quote: "we can learn from eachother of course, and some may know mroe then others" But getting together is something completely different then having a full-scale world size feudalistic hierarchy. As for the heirarchy - Timothy is pretty clear that there exists a heirarchy of episcopai, (bishops), presbyteroi, (priests) and deacons. The threefold structure is biblical. different positions is not the same as a hierarchy. We also have deacons, elders, etc. in our church, but it's not a hierarchy. So you'd throw out the Nicaean Creed? The Athanasian Creed? As having authority? yes. Then why not keep the old? old generations make as much errors as new generations. Keeping old traditional texts as doctrine piles up the errors of the past. The RCC has clear examples of wrong doctrines of the past that the church can't get around now b/c they're authoritive now: Mary always a virgin, celibate, anti conception, to name just a few. The first is based on a translation error in the first version of the Vulgate, for crying out loud, it has been corrected in the later versions, but the doctrine remains b/c it has been set one day and can never be changed after that. So now the RCC is not only dealing with the errors of todays generation, but also with the errors of the past generations. Use the past as a point of reference but never as an authorized source. Never, b/c the people of the past made as many errors as the people now. And even the most holy pope was only a fallable human being. If the culture is not getting better, what is the imperative to change? be a greek with the greek and a jew with the jews. Why? b/c we have a message for them. Not a moral legal bunch of rules. Well, I'm a bit disappointed. You were a Christian, once, Robert. I remember. We used to write back and forth on these matters. Christianity isn't about morals but about salvation. It's not about trying to be a better man, but about acknowledging that you're a fallable man. It's not about having faith in yourself to stop sinning, but about having faith in Christ. It's not about telling other people about how wrong they are, but about how they can find help in Christ. And everytime someone puts a focus on the first part of the above phrases, he's becoming a stand in the way for the 2nd part of the phrases, either for himself or for others. Exactly. Which is why the Church should continue to teach that homosexuality is sinful. Thanks to people like you non-christians think that christianity is all about being against gays. I bet you talk more about homosexuality then about Jesus Christ. Thanks to people like you the gospel is a lost case for most gay people. If Paul would have been like you then no rich people and male humans would have been in the church today. The Church never capitulated and taught that slavery was good, just because that is what the cultures of those times believed. I'm not asking you to say that homosexuality is good, just adopt to it. The homosexuality of our times isn't the same as the homosexuality of Paul's time, or of Old Testament times. You can't copy and paste lines from ancient times to our times. Neither with slavery, neither with emancipation nor with homosexuality. Neither should the Church capitulate on their fundamental teachings just because of what society in general believes. So that's the fundamental teaching according to you? See what happens when christians start to focus on the moral, they drift away from the real fundamental teaching: we are all sinners and should have faith in Christ, who must renew us. Now it's all: "Renew yourself into my interpertation of the laws" Sure, for now. This world is only temporary, Robert. If you live for this world, you'll die with it as well. Better than Christ? With whom was Jesus always arguing? With the sinners? No, with the know-all law preachers!
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