DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Rebirth (Influence, Elements), or Rebirth (Consciousness Transference)?

**invasuant** · 05-30-2012, 08:46 AM

As for opinions, I am personally agnostic (literally "not knowing") on rebirth. I haven't made up my mind one way or the other. Both options given in the OP are valid interpretations, and each may be useful in different contexts, being more or less suitable for people of different dispositions. I enjoy investigating both rather than dismissing one or the other upon first inspection.

Ultimately, however, speculation about rebirth must be set aside.

Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2)

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

[...]

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....002.than.html Bhaddekaratta Sutta (MN 131)

You shouldn't chase after the past or place expectations on the future. What is past is left behind. The future is as yet unreached.
Whatever quality is present you clearly see right there, right there. Not taken in, unshaken, that's how you develop the heart. Ardently doing what should be done today, for — who knows? — tomorrow death. There is no bargaining with Mortality & his mighty horde.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....131.than.html Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta (MN 140)

'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.

"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....140.than.html To be overly concerned with rebirth is to be disconnected from our current reality.

05-30-2012, 08:46 AM	#33
invasuant Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 642 Senior Member	As for opinions, I am personally agnostic (literally "not knowing") on rebirth. I haven't made up my mind one way or the other. Both options given in the OP are valid interpretations, and each may be useful in different contexts, being more or less suitable for people of different dispositions. I enjoy investigating both rather than dismissing one or the other upon first inspection. Ultimately, however, speculation about rebirth must be set aside. Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2) "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' [...] "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....002.than.html Bhaddekaratta Sutta (MN 131) You shouldn't chase after the past or place expectations on the future. What is past is left behind. The future is as yet unreached. Whatever quality is present you clearly see right there, right there. Not taken in, unshaken, that's how you develop the heart. Ardently doing what should be done today, for — who knows? — tomorrow death. There is no bargaining with Mortality & his mighty horde. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....131.than.html Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta (MN 140) 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace. "Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....140.than.html To be overly concerned with rebirth is to be disconnected from our current reality.
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