DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post

**Roker** · 05-24-2012, 08:47 PM

yes, some would

imo, the universe is something subject to continual change & transformation of the various elements. thus, imo, the universe as a changing thing has an inherent existence, just like the reality of impermanence & conditionality has inherent existence. the natural creator is change (anicca) itself; conditionality (iddapaccayatta) itself

The above is a bit confusing to me.

Nagarjuna's Seventy Stanzas: 2 - 4

"All phenomena must have either self-existence or non-self-existence. There is no phenomenon which is other than these two, nor are there any expressions which do not come under these two categories. All phenomena which are the subject of this treatise are similar to nirvana because all phenomena are devoid of inherent existence.

What is the reason for this? It is because the inherent existence of all phenomena is not to be found in causes, conditions, aggregations or individualities. Thus all phenomena are devoid of inherent existence and are empty.

Some assert that a result already exists inherently in the nature of its cause; but then it cannot arise because it already exists. Others assert that a result exists inherently but not in the nature of its cause; so it cannot arise because it is not in the nature of its cause. Yet others assert that a result both does and does not exist inherently in its cause; ; but then they are asserting contradictory views about an object because an object cannot simultaneously both exist and not exist. Because phenomena do not arise inherently so also they do not endure or cease inherently."

IMO, the above logic precludes any form of inherent existence. It really does not matter if you believe that Nagarjuna really received this from the Nagas and that it was a true lost teaching of the Buddha. The logic still stands.

Hands Palm to Palm,
Rhysman

05-24-2012, 08:47 PM	#11
Roker Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 497 Senior Member	yes, some would imo, the universe is something subject to continual change & transformation of the various elements. thus, imo, the universe as a changing thing has an inherent existence, just like the reality of impermanence & conditionality has inherent existence. the natural creator is change (anicca) itself; conditionality (iddapaccayatta) itself The above is a bit confusing to me. Nagarjuna's Seventy Stanzas: 2 - 4 "All phenomena must have either self-existence or non-self-existence. There is no phenomenon which is other than these two, nor are there any expressions which do not come under these two categories. All phenomena which are the subject of this treatise are similar to nirvana because all phenomena are devoid of inherent existence. What is the reason for this? It is because the inherent existence of all phenomena is not to be found in causes, conditions, aggregations or individualities. Thus all phenomena are devoid of inherent existence and are empty. Some assert that a result already exists inherently in the nature of its cause; but then it cannot arise because it already exists. Others assert that a result exists inherently but not in the nature of its cause; so it cannot arise because it is not in the nature of its cause. Yet others assert that a result both does and does not exist inherently in its cause; ; but then they are asserting contradictory views about an object because an object cannot simultaneously both exist and not exist. Because phenomena do not arise inherently so also they do not endure or cease inherently." IMO, the above logic precludes any form of inherent existence. It really does not matter if you believe that Nagarjuna really received this from the Nagas and that it was a true lost teaching of the Buddha. The logic still stands. Hands Palm to Palm, Rhysman
	Quote