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**Pa33anger** · 05-29-2012, 06:42 PM

Also, I thought it is commonly agreed that the definition of not-self is 'empty' of self, which means that self does not inherently exist, i.e. 'self' is dependent on others.

hi

'empty' of self means there is not self there, such as there is no 'self' in a rock. (it does not mean 'self' is dependent on others)

277. "All conditioned things [i.e., excluding Nirvana] are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

278. "All conditioned things [i.e., excluding Nirvana] are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

279. "All things [i.e., both conditioned & unconditioned, including Nirvana] are not-self" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...p.20.budd.html

If not, does Dhamma exist in this world? I think not, because there will be nothing that is in the state of 'inconstant'/'unsatisfactory'/'Not-self.' conditioned things are in the state of 'inconstant'/'unsatisfactory'/'Not-self.'

the uncondtitioned Nirvana is the state of 'constant'/'satisfactory'/'Not-self.'

So we can say that Dhamma does not inherently exist, because existence of Dhamma depends on the existence of a phenomenon that is not in the state of Nirvana. buddha included Nirvana within the scope of Dhamma.

for example, the mind sense base, buddha described as mind (mano), mano vinnana (mind-consciousness) and dhamme (dhamma). contrary to Thanissaro's translation, dhamme does not mean 'ideas'. dhamme is used here because Nirvana is a mind-object known by mind (mano). dhamme means all things that are dependent upon being known by the mind sense base, which includes feelings, perceptions, ideas, mental images & the unconditioned Nirvana

if we follow your logic, Nirvana is not independent because it is dependent on being known by the mind. naturally, this logic does not conform to buddha

Nirvana remains unconditioned & independent despite its existence being dependent on mind to be known

as Buddha explained in the quote: "impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self" are the norm, even when they have not been discovered & revealed by a buddha to humanity

in the same way, even if Nirvana is not known, it still exists. perfect peace from suffering always exists, waiting to be discovered

kind regards

05-29-2012, 06:42 PM	#36
Pa33anger Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 713 Senior Member	Also, I thought it is commonly agreed that the definition of not-self is 'empty' of self, which means that self does not inherently exist, i.e. 'self' is dependent on others. hi 'empty' of self means there is not self there, such as there is no 'self' in a rock. (it does not mean 'self' is dependent on others) 277. "All conditioned things [i.e., excluding Nirvana] are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification. 278. "All conditioned things [i.e., excluding Nirvana] are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification. 279. "All things [i.e., both conditioned & unconditioned, including Nirvana] are not-self" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...p.20.budd.html If not, does Dhamma exist in this world? I think not, because there will be nothing that is in the state of 'inconstant'/'unsatisfactory'/'Not-self.' conditioned things are in the state of 'inconstant'/'unsatisfactory'/'Not-self.' the uncondtitioned Nirvana is the state of 'constant'/'satisfactory'/'Not-self.' So we can say that Dhamma does not inherently exist, because existence of Dhamma depends on the existence of a phenomenon that is not in the state of Nirvana. buddha included Nirvana within the scope of Dhamma. for example, the mind sense base, buddha described as mind (mano), mano vinnana (mind-consciousness) and dhamme (dhamma). contrary to Thanissaro's translation, dhamme does not mean 'ideas'. dhamme is used here because Nirvana is a mind-object known by mind (mano). dhamme means all things that are dependent upon being known by the mind sense base, which includes feelings, perceptions, ideas, mental images & the unconditioned Nirvana if we follow your logic, Nirvana is not independent because it is dependent on being known by the mind. naturally, this logic does not conform to buddha Nirvana remains unconditioned & independent despite its existence being dependent on mind to be known as Buddha explained in the quote: "impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self" are the norm, even when they have not been discovered & revealed by a buddha to humanity in the same way, even if Nirvana is not known, it still exists. perfect peace from suffering always exists, waiting to be discovered kind regards
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