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**iklostardinn** · 02-24-2012, 06:08 AM

Element. You don't think you can learn many of the things the Buddha taught by studying yourself?

imo, "studying yourself" is quite a general statement. If we say "studying the body & mind" via introspection, imo, this is more fitting

although Dogen, did famously say:

the Buddhist teachings are the description of what the buddha found when he studied his body & mind

if our description does not match the Buddha's, this may be cause for reconsideration

many human beings have meditated but not each has had the same experience

kind regards

Gassho

The dharma can only be found by finding it yourself ... by studying yourself ... by walking Gautama's path yourself. You cannot be a follower and simply read about Buddhism, then claim to have reached the same conclusions as Gautama.

Gautama taught the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path amd meditation ... these are the first steps along the path .. if you walk the path yourself you will find the dharma ... the steps on the path will become visible as you walk it.

The dharma is about how to interact within this process which we laughingly call "the world" ... how to experience this "world" ... that is the path.

The written aspects of the dharma - the Pali Canon, the Zen texts, all the past comentaries and discussions - can help us walk the path. They can be pointers on the path ... as long as we act mindfully towards the texts.

As the much-quoted Kalama sutta says:

Do not go by revelation;
Do not go by tradition;
Do not go by hearsay;
Do not go on the authority of sacred texts;
Do not go on the grounds of pure logic;
Do not go by a view that seems rational;
Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances;
Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it;
Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent;
Do not go along because "the recluse is our teacher."
Kalamas, when you yourselves know: These things are unwholesome, these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; and when undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them...
Kalamas, when you know for yourselves: These are wholesome; these things are not blameworthy; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness, having undertaken them, abide in them.

To me, this says we learn things by our own experience. And to do that we first must study ourselves - to understand our experience, and to change that experience.

If our descriptions do not match the descriptions from the written texts, then we need to reconsider - our own experiences, our understanding of those experiences .. and in doing so we change our experiences ... the change is not because it is "required" by the written sources, or required by authority. The change will come because we reconsidered ...

That is the path ...

Walk it and you will see.

02-24-2012, 06:08 AM	#18
iklostardinn Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 347 Senior Member	Element. You don't think you can learn many of the things the Buddha taught by studying yourself? imo, "studying yourself" is quite a general statement. If we say "studying the body & mind" via introspection, imo, this is more fitting although Dogen, did famously say: the Buddhist teachings are the description of what the buddha found when he studied his body & mind if our description does not match the Buddha's, this may be cause for reconsideration many human beings have meditated but not each has had the same experience kind regards Gassho The dharma can only be found by finding it yourself ... by studying yourself ... by walking Gautama's path yourself. You cannot be a follower and simply read about Buddhism, then claim to have reached the same conclusions as Gautama. Gautama taught the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path amd meditation ... these are the first steps along the path .. if you walk the path yourself you will find the dharma ... the steps on the path will become visible as you walk it. The dharma is about how to interact within this process which we laughingly call "the world" ... how to experience this "world" ... that is the path. The written aspects of the dharma - the Pali Canon, the Zen texts, all the past comentaries and discussions - can help us walk the path. They can be pointers on the path ... as long as we act mindfully towards the texts. As the much-quoted Kalama sutta says: Do not go by revelation; Do not go by tradition; Do not go by hearsay; Do not go on the authority of sacred texts; Do not go on the grounds of pure logic; Do not go by a view that seems rational; Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances; Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it; Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent; Do not go along because "the recluse is our teacher." Kalamas, when you yourselves know: These things are unwholesome, these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; and when undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them... Kalamas, when you know for yourselves: These are wholesome; these things are not blameworthy; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness, having undertaken them, abide in them. To me, this says we learn things by our own experience. And to do that we first must study ourselves - to understand our experience, and to change that experience. If our descriptions do not match the descriptions from the written texts, then we need to reconsider - our own experiences, our understanding of those experiences .. and in doing so we change our experiences ... the change is not because it is "required" by the written sources, or required by authority. The change will come because we reconsidered ... That is the path ... Walk it and you will see.
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