[markbila]

H Kaarine;

In your response you said:

Infants, newborns, children, babies are not persons in accordance with the field of Developmental Psychology and also for the school of Jean Piaget. Piaget never said anything like this, nor did he ever suggest this. Based on all definition of persons I've found and based on Piaget's work, this can't possibly be so. The same is true with other psychologists but I will only reference Piaget here.

The dictionary definition in biologyonline.org states that "person" defines it as:
"self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent; a human being; a man, woman, or child". Person means one with self concept. In Piaget's stages of development even two year olds (and under) have the ability to conceptualize and learn. For example they are able to learn and understand that, when an object is removed from their sense that it doesn't cease to exist. They are capable of modifying their behavior intentionally in order to reach specific goals (for example, to use a stick to move an object). They have a strong self-concept. They engage in behaviors which provide pleasure or satisfaction; they learn what produces pleasure and what doesn't.

In university level courses on Piaget's stages of development the educators creating the syllabus at one large US university state this:

"Child psychologist Jean Piaget described the mechanism by which the mind processes new information. He said that a person understands whatever information fits into his established view of the world. When information does not fit, the person must reexamine and adjust his thinking to accommodate the new information. Piaget described four stages of cognitive development and relates them to a person's ability to understand and assimilate new information.

Sensorimotor: (birth to about age 2)

During this stage, the child learns about himself and his environment through motor and reflex actions. Thought derives from sensation and movement. The child learns that he is separate from his environment and that aspects of his environment -- his parents or favorite toy -- continue to exist even though they may be outside the reach of his senses. Teaching for a child in this stage should be geared to the sensorimotor system. You can modify behavior by using the senses: a frown, a stern or soothing voice -- all serve as appropriate techniques. (and it goes on to list the other 3 stages, all of which involve far more complex types of mentation,

Here also from Wikipedia
; * Sensorimotor stage: from birth to age 2. Children experience the world through movement and senses (use five senses to explore the world). During the sensorimotor stage children are extremely egocentric, meaning they cannot perceive the world from others' viewpoints. The sensorimotor stage is divided into six substages: "(1) simple reflexes; (2) first habits and primary circular reactions; (3) secondary circular reactions; (4) coordination of secondary circular reactions; (5) tertiary circular reactions, novelty, and curiosity; and (6) internalization of schemes." [13].... And here, describing the last stage at 18-24 months:

uring the last stage they are 18 to 24 months old. During this stage they shift to symbolic thinking.

So, on this point I can't agree with you. I think it's a major point too. If we are going to discuss suffering we must include children. It's absurd to say "they are not persons and so we don't need to include them in any discussion". We are trying to understand where suffering comes from. This is a critical are of study for any Buddhist. So it's important to have common ground. Babies whose entire lives are a mass of suffering (from severe birth defects, war, and the like) are suffering for a reason, and I want to know what it is. If it's 100% ignorance, and the mental states that arise from ignorance then fine, but we should examine how ignorance causes this suffering. It seems that some of that suffering comes from the birth defects themselves, which, according to you, are not caused by ignorance; they are caused by nature/randomness.