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**Tij84ye** · 01-06-2012, 02:22 PM

So, on this point I can't agree with you.

It's Ok. Seems you are the expert in children cognitive development, not me.

I think it's a major point too. If we are going to discuss suffering we must include children. Yes, we can include them.

It's absurd to say "they are not persons and so we don't need to include them in any discussion". I was not accurate. Sorry. They are persons under cognitive development.

We are trying to understand where suffering comes from. That has been well understood by the Buddha.

Babies whose entire lives are a mass of suffering (from severe birth defects, war, and the like) are suffering for a reason, and I want to know what it is. It is just suffering. A birth defect is a birth defect and we can found many reasons or no reason.

The important thing is not the reason of a birth defect, but the suffering fabricated around that event.

Even under the best possible conditions, a birth defect happens. Things happen. The entire universe can't be under our absolute control. The only thing that is under our control is our mental response to live happenings.

And also a baby do not endures an entire live nor suffering should.

If it's 100% ignorance, and the mental states that arise from ignorance then fine Yes.

but we should examine how ignorance causes this suffering. It has been clearly examined. To ignore that craving, clinging to the aggregates and the idea of self leads to suffering due a lack of insight and knowledge about the true nature of things.

It seems that some of that suffering comes from the birth defects themselves, Again, suffering comes from mental fabrications, craving, clinging, self hood... not from birth defects or unfortunate conditions by themselves. The mental fabrication from this events leads to suffering.

which, according to you, are not caused by ignorance; they are caused by nature/randomness. I don't think I say that. But if it is the case I say a wrong thing...

What I am trying to say is that randomness is not the cause of suffering but the mental proliferations, fabrications around such events because ignorance, lack of understanding and insight about impermanence, the idea of self hood, craving, etc...

The sutta explains it better than me:

Two kinds of persons:

"For an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person there arise gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. For a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones there also arise gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person?" Run of the mil person:

"His mind remains consumed with the gain. His mind remains consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind remains consumed with the pain.

"He welcomes the arisen gain and rebels against the arisen loss. He welcomes the arisen status and rebels against the arisen disgrace. He welcomes the arisen praise and rebels against the arisen censure. He welcomes the arisen pleasure and rebels against the arisen pain. As he is thus engaged in welcoming & rebelling, he is not released from birth, aging, or death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, or despairs. He is not released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
The Noble One:

"His mind does not remain consumed with the gain. His mind does not remain consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind does not remain consumed with the pain.

"He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. He does not welcome the arisen status, or rebel against the arisen disgrace. He does not welcome the arisen praise, or rebel against the arisen censure. He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

Lokavipatti Sutta
IMO, it is very clear. Misfortune events happen... our mental disposition toward them is what matters.

01-06-2012, 02:22 PM	#9
Tij84ye Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 327 Senior Member	So, on this point I can't agree with you. It's Ok. Seems you are the expert in children cognitive development, not me. I think it's a major point too. If we are going to discuss suffering we must include children. Yes, we can include them. It's absurd to say "they are not persons and so we don't need to include them in any discussion". I was not accurate. Sorry. They are persons under cognitive development. We are trying to understand where suffering comes from. That has been well understood by the Buddha. Babies whose entire lives are a mass of suffering (from severe birth defects, war, and the like) are suffering for a reason, and I want to know what it is. It is just suffering. A birth defect is a birth defect and we can found many reasons or no reason. The important thing is not the reason of a birth defect, but the suffering fabricated around that event. Even under the best possible conditions, a birth defect happens. Things happen. The entire universe can't be under our absolute control. The only thing that is under our control is our mental response to live happenings. And also a baby do not endures an entire live nor suffering should. If it's 100% ignorance, and the mental states that arise from ignorance then fine Yes. but we should examine how ignorance causes this suffering. It has been clearly examined. To ignore that craving, clinging to the aggregates and the idea of self leads to suffering due a lack of insight and knowledge about the true nature of things. It seems that some of that suffering comes from the birth defects themselves, Again, suffering comes from mental fabrications, craving, clinging, self hood... not from birth defects or unfortunate conditions by themselves. The mental fabrication from this events leads to suffering. which, according to you, are not caused by ignorance; they are caused by nature/randomness. I don't think I say that. But if it is the case I say a wrong thing... What I am trying to say is that randomness is not the cause of suffering but the mental proliferations, fabrications around such events because ignorance, lack of understanding and insight about impermanence, the idea of self hood, craving, etc... The sutta explains it better than me: Two kinds of persons: "For an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person there arise gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. For a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones there also arise gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person?" Run of the mil person: "His mind remains consumed with the gain. His mind remains consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind remains consumed with the pain. "He welcomes the arisen gain and rebels against the arisen loss. He welcomes the arisen status and rebels against the arisen disgrace. He welcomes the arisen praise and rebels against the arisen censure. He welcomes the arisen pleasure and rebels against the arisen pain. As he is thus engaged in welcoming & rebelling, he is not released from birth, aging, or death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, or despairs. He is not released, I tell you, from suffering & stress. The Noble One: "His mind does not remain consumed with the gain. His mind does not remain consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind does not remain consumed with the pain. "He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. He does not welcome the arisen status, or rebel against the arisen disgrace. He does not welcome the arisen praise, or rebel against the arisen censure. He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress. Lokavipatti Sutta IMO, it is very clear. Misfortune events happen... our mental disposition toward them is what matters.
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