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**Unrersvar** · 01-08-2012, 11:05 PM

I understand sankhara as mental proliferation. Also, sankhara happens when we do not "see" or acknowledge that all conditioned things leads to Dukkha, because of its impermanent nature.

tjampel, I suggest to have a look to a series of different threads at the Theravada Buddhism Forum related to some fundamental issues about the teachings of Buddha and commented by Element in a very accessible way, here.

I don't know why "randomness of nature" is so hard to see. Humans can control some aspects of nature but a huge proportion of it can't be under absolute control.

Anyway, the issue of randomness can fit better in the tea room, tj.

What really matters is that Buddha taught about how to cope with life happenings. Things happen, things like: gain, loss, etc.,

Reasons are many but what is important is the mental state toward such happenings:

Isn't the given quote a deeper realization?

Kind Wishes,

I argue that randomness of nature, the way it's presented by you (not me) is the material and substantial cause of suffering for sentient beings and not something that belongs in the tea room (as the cause of suffering is clearly an important topic).

Randomness of nature, producing beings who will either suffer all their lives (having no prospect to improve) or, for a minute number of very fortunate beings (for whom the Buddha taught) suffer less than all of their lives, is as much the cause of beings suffering as is the bullet from a gun the cause of a murder victim's death where the bullet severs a major artery; the inability to get oxygen to organs and the brain is what kills that person. Still I say that the bullet killed that person, and, it seems, only those people who post here might take issue with that analysis.

It is not circumstances of birth that cause suffering; it's mental proliferations arising from ignorance. Randomness of nature, as you've propounded it, at least, insures such circumstances of birth that virtually all sentient beings will live out their lives utterly unable to remove the slightest part of that ignorance. Why? Not because of their failure to implement some schema taught by the buddha (which is the technical reason they remain in a state of suffering); but because of their lack of capacity, lack of exposure, lack of opportunity, etc. The sea turtle and the yoke....you referenced that. And, it's correct. Randomness of nature insures that the % of sentient beings that are destined to suffer for their entire lives is about the same as the chances of that turtle emerging into the yoke from the depths of the sea (once every 100 years).

And...

While all my training argues for randomness of nature I recognize that my training is part of my problem. It's training in reification of what appears as truly existence and permanent. And I think the same must be applied to the notion of random nature, biology, etc. It's a system devised by suffering beings which elevates various phenomena to truly existent status...it exists like that. Well, ignorance, as a mental state (in terms of an individual occurrence of such a state) may be defined as misunderstanding the nature of self or phenomena and then holding to that misunderstanding/cognitive error.

I think that only a fool ignores science and only a foolish Buddhist deifies and/or reifies the materialist aspects of science; in the end science consists of stories created by very smart people which explain quite impressively and correctly (in a functional sense) what they see. But they still see things as suffering beings see them, and, despite the rational approach, it's still a product of cognitive error in the way it understands self and object.

01-08-2012, 11:05 PM	#32
Unrersvar Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 511 Senior Member	I understand sankhara as mental proliferation. Also, sankhara happens when we do not "see" or acknowledge that all conditioned things leads to Dukkha, because of its impermanent nature. tjampel, I suggest to have a look to a series of different threads at the Theravada Buddhism Forum related to some fundamental issues about the teachings of Buddha and commented by Element in a very accessible way, here. I don't know why "randomness of nature" is so hard to see. Humans can control some aspects of nature but a huge proportion of it can't be under absolute control. Anyway, the issue of randomness can fit better in the tea room, tj. What really matters is that Buddha taught about how to cope with life happenings. Things happen, things like: gain, loss, etc., Reasons are many but what is important is the mental state toward such happenings: Isn't the given quote a deeper realization? Kind Wishes, I argue that randomness of nature, the way it's presented by you (not me) is the material and substantial cause of suffering for sentient beings and not something that belongs in the tea room (as the cause of suffering is clearly an important topic). Randomness of nature, producing beings who will either suffer all their lives (having no prospect to improve) or, for a minute number of very fortunate beings (for whom the Buddha taught) suffer less than all of their lives, is as much the cause of beings suffering as is the bullet from a gun the cause of a murder victim's death where the bullet severs a major artery; the inability to get oxygen to organs and the brain is what kills that person. Still I say that the bullet killed that person, and, it seems, only those people who post here might take issue with that analysis. It is not circumstances of birth that cause suffering; it's mental proliferations arising from ignorance. Randomness of nature, as you've propounded it, at least, insures such circumstances of birth that virtually all sentient beings will live out their lives utterly unable to remove the slightest part of that ignorance. Why? Not because of their failure to implement some schema taught by the buddha (which is the technical reason they remain in a state of suffering); but because of their lack of capacity, lack of exposure, lack of opportunity, etc. The sea turtle and the yoke....you referenced that. And, it's correct. Randomness of nature insures that the % of sentient beings that are destined to suffer for their entire lives is about the same as the chances of that turtle emerging into the yoke from the depths of the sea (once every 100 years). And... While all my training argues for randomness of nature I recognize that my training is part of my problem. It's training in reification of what appears as truly existence and permanent. And I think the same must be applied to the notion of random nature, biology, etc. It's a system devised by suffering beings which elevates various phenomena to truly existent status...it exists like that. Well, ignorance, as a mental state (in terms of an individual occurrence of such a state) may be defined as misunderstanding the nature of self or phenomena and then holding to that misunderstanding/cognitive error. I think that only a fool ignores science and only a foolish Buddhist deifies and/or reifies the materialist aspects of science; in the end science consists of stories created by very smart people which explain quite impressively and correctly (in a functional sense) what they see. But they still see things as suffering beings see them, and, despite the rational approach, it's still a product of cognitive error in the way it understands self and object.
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