DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post

**lzwha** · 12-15-2011, 12:20 PM

Hi TJ,

Just curious, why are you externalizing your emotions? If all that you see are "emptiness", why are you creating "emptiness" in your mind? What's the purpose of creating "illusions" that you can defeat? Defeating illusions will only accomplish one thing, and that is defeating illusions.

I have always wondered why people who love to say everything is "empty" are so fond of creating things to see and to feel in their mind.

Firstly....though it's tangential to what I was talking about I nevertheless wish to state this, as we may have a different understandings of how to go about "looking for" emptiness.

Those who assert emptiness need not create anything at all, or look for some exotic object to negate, to see or feel this quality in their mind; their mind, all by itself sees and feels, smells, hears, tastes, thinks and, does each of these things in a totally deluded way so....just look at your own mind; don't make anything up at all....just examine that. You can't create emptiness; you can only look at something you think (deep down, at least---forget about your view and theories) is real and, upon examination, you realize (non-conceptually) that it lacks whatever reality you've projected onto that object. This isn't theory; it's more like the instant discernment of not finding the wallet in your pants that you knew was in your back pocket; you reach in and it's not there--you "come up empty"; it's that kind of "empty"; so you need an object you think is real.

Now as for what I was talking about...

To make any progress I believe you need to be able to achieve a stable meditative platform. I am speaking here of encountering obstacles that prevent one from achieving it.

"Seeing" emptiness or creating emptiness is not a goal or result of this type of meditation. We're talking about an antidote to something that's preventing us from achieving meditation in the first place. Using the view of emptiness to kind of of deconstruct negative emotions is a practical and useful tool but about as close to "seeing emptiness" as an image of an apple pie to a slice of it. And not only that, even here (in applying the antidote) you are NOT creating an illusion; you're watching an actual state of mind; your mind; you're manifesting anger or fear or lust or whatever, and you watch it arise, cease, examine its characteristics, its causes, it "essence", etc.

Using the (actually appearing) obstacle as object of meditation firstly forces you to look at something that's generally been obscured within the depths of your mind. By merely examining this powerful obstacle...merely by doing that, you weaken its power; by not running, by taking note of its features, its causes, its coming, its going, its lack of essence (in the sense of having a solid palpable core of reality that's always there), you bring it within the realm of the relatively mundane, at least and, ultimately may be able to either not be bothered by it or it may simply cease to rise at some point. If you hold your mind on anything it loses its shock value, its power; it all gets attenuated...; after all it's just mind that's coming and going; there's nothing solid about it; it's a product of specific causes and condition; it's not something that truly lives within you, has a real existence; there is NO inner child, inner demon, inner monster that is more than the result of a connected pattern of mental activity---neuro-biologists would say it's just a bunch of interrelated neurons firing in a particular pattern, based upon stimulation of one or several. Patterns can be changed. So mind, as it's experienced, can be changed.

Knowing that what arises is impermanent; that fear and pain never last, that things that come together (including our very mind) must ultimately come apart, that whatever mental state is hampering your progress in meditation is nothing more than the arising of some connected pattern of mental activity, conditioned by something that may have occurred 20 years ago...all these things....can help this appearance to lose its grip, to have a weaker and weaker effect on your ability to meditate.

When trying to gain meditative concentration and absorptions you naturally use any means necessary to eliminate what holds you back from this state.

I am very sorry if I suggested that this is a great way to go looking for emptiness. My own teacher would berate me for saying that; he always tells us to simply look at our own mind; it will never disappoint.

12-15-2011, 12:20 PM	#22
lzwha Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 398 Senior Member	Hi TJ, Just curious, why are you externalizing your emotions? If all that you see are "emptiness", why are you creating "emptiness" in your mind? What's the purpose of creating "illusions" that you can defeat? Defeating illusions will only accomplish one thing, and that is defeating illusions. I have always wondered why people who love to say everything is "empty" are so fond of creating things to see and to feel in their mind. Firstly....though it's tangential to what I was talking about I nevertheless wish to state this, as we may have a different understandings of how to go about "looking for" emptiness. Those who assert emptiness need not create anything at all, or look for some exotic object to negate, to see or feel this quality in their mind; their mind, all by itself sees and feels, smells, hears, tastes, thinks and, does each of these things in a totally deluded way so....just look at your own mind; don't make anything up at all....just examine that. You can't create emptiness; you can only look at something you think (deep down, at least---forget about your view and theories) is real and, upon examination, you realize (non-conceptually) that it lacks whatever reality you've projected onto that object. This isn't theory; it's more like the instant discernment of not finding the wallet in your pants that you knew was in your back pocket; you reach in and it's not there--you "come up empty"; it's that kind of "empty"; so you need an object you think is real. Now as for what I was talking about... To make any progress I believe you need to be able to achieve a stable meditative platform. I am speaking here of encountering obstacles that prevent one from achieving it. "Seeing" emptiness or creating emptiness is not a goal or result of this type of meditation. We're talking about an antidote to something that's preventing us from achieving meditation in the first place. Using the view of emptiness to kind of of deconstruct negative emotions is a practical and useful tool but about as close to "seeing emptiness" as an image of an apple pie to a slice of it. And not only that, even here (in applying the antidote) you are NOT creating an illusion; you're watching an actual state of mind; your mind; you're manifesting anger or fear or lust or whatever, and you watch it arise, cease, examine its characteristics, its causes, it "essence", etc. Using the (actually appearing) obstacle as object of meditation firstly forces you to look at something that's generally been obscured within the depths of your mind. By merely examining this powerful obstacle...merely by doing that, you weaken its power; by not running, by taking note of its features, its causes, its coming, its going, its lack of essence (in the sense of having a solid palpable core of reality that's always there), you bring it within the realm of the relatively mundane, at least and, ultimately may be able to either not be bothered by it or it may simply cease to rise at some point. If you hold your mind on anything it loses its shock value, its power; it all gets attenuated...; after all it's just mind that's coming and going; there's nothing solid about it; it's a product of specific causes and condition; it's not something that truly lives within you, has a real existence; there is NO inner child, inner demon, inner monster that is more than the result of a connected pattern of mental activity---neuro-biologists would say it's just a bunch of interrelated neurons firing in a particular pattern, based upon stimulation of one or several. Patterns can be changed. So mind, as it's experienced, can be changed. Knowing that what arises is impermanent; that fear and pain never last, that things that come together (including our very mind) must ultimately come apart, that whatever mental state is hampering your progress in meditation is nothing more than the arising of some connected pattern of mental activity, conditioned by something that may have occurred 20 years ago...all these things....can help this appearance to lose its grip, to have a weaker and weaker effect on your ability to meditate. When trying to gain meditative concentration and absorptions you naturally use any means necessary to eliminate what holds you back from this state. I am very sorry if I suggested that this is a great way to go looking for emptiness. My own teacher would berate me for saying that; he always tells us to simply look at our own mind; it will never disappoint.
	Quote