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**paydayus** · 09-13-2011, 06:15 PM

Demarcation of Hindu teachings as Hindu teachings helps to establish them as different and apart from the Buddha's own teaching... this in itself is a service and offering to be grateful for. Thank you Stuka.

Unless one has an interest in pursuing Hinduism, I don't understand why anyone would be interested in reading Hindu references that contradict the Dhamma, on a Buddhist forum. It is sufficient to know it is not Buddha-vacana.

My view on the above opinion is it is non-sequitur

My impression is the opening quote is essentially a view that forms part of the body of the "Buddhist" teachings

I am not fluent in Hinduism however my guess is Hinduism teaches the soul cannot be destroyed and finds a new body after death

Where as it is Buddhism that teaches consciousness-mind-body-sense organs are conditioned by past karmic formations

Mr Aik Theng Chong in the OP has voiced a point of view which seems to fall within the traditions of Buddhism

Below are quotes from the Buddha himself plus contemporary scholars which seem to support Mr Aik Theng Chong's view

In fact, one of the scholars below has done four years of Pali study at the University of Wisconsin

Even if Mr Aik Theng Chong's view is a debatable interpretation of Buddhism, to me, it does not seem to fall within Hinduism

As it is now, we are living more in the past than in the present. Our body themselves are actually the visible appearance of our past consciousness. It is actually materialized karma, the consciousness of past moment of existence made visible.

Karma is but the acting principle of our consciousness, which as effect becomes visible appearance, this appearance is thus essentially ‘past’. The position of the body as the product of a passed consciousness and also as a basis of the present one give rise in us one part that is conscious and subject to our will such as our movement, speech, action and functioning of our mind, and another unconscious part such as the growth and decay of our body."

Monks, I will teach you about new kamma and old kamma, about the ceasing of kamma and the path that leads to the ceasing of kamma. Listen well, pay close attention and I will speak.

What, monks, is old kamma?

The eye, ear, nose tongue, body and mind, monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling. This, monks, is called 'old kamma.'

SN 35.145

What is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base? 'Mentality-materiality' should be the reply.

What is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality? 'Consciousness' should be the reply.

What is the supporting condition for consciousness? 'Kamma formations' should be the reply.

SN 12.23

For example, the Buddha‘s Dependent Origination, which is a 12 part cyclical process of arising, decay, death and rebirth of all things...

The ―missing link which needs to be added to the deterministic theory is the thinking mind, the element of free-will and kamma formations. Kamma formations can be from a current or a past life, in fact the differences between many siblings, can probably best be explained as evidence for re-birth, past lives.

http://www.thedhamma.com/buddhaslists.pdf

David N. Snyder was born in an apartment in Kaiserslautern, Germany while his mother slept and his father was away on military maneuvers. His mother literally slept through the labor process as there was no pain to her. The Buddha was born in a similar way and the Suttas report that all samma-sam-buddhas (enlightened Buddhas who teach the masses, the next one being Metteyya who currently resides in the Tusita heaven waiting for when the Dhamma dies out in some distant future time) are born with no pain to the mother. The birth year was the (Chinese) year of the Tiger (famous in Buddhist lands as the tiger is known for independence and is on some Buddhist flags). The birth date of David N. Snyder was also an important religious day, known as Uposatha, being the New Moon Day of the month in which he was born (on Uposatha days many Buddhists go to the temple for meditation and for renewing the Precepts). Tibetan lamas (high ranking monks/teachers) have often looked for people with such birth events for locating the rebirth of famous Rinpoches (gurus, teachers) of the past.

As you point out, it [Momentary DO] doesn't in itself refute "rebirth".

However, we have something of a "serial pest" here - a banned [ex-]member who keeps creating new accounts and try to engage in disruptive conversation. He has formerly used the momentary DO model as vehement argumentation against rebirth, and this has unfortunately coloured the discussion here somewhat.

Having done four years of Pali study at the University of Wisconsin, Madison South Asian/Buddhist Studies program, I think I know what the words mean. Humor me here. Where does any text define sankhara of the paticcasamuppadaq formula in terms of vitakka & vicara?

Also, paticcasaumppada in its traditional structure certainly does not negate a three life reading, and by its language strongly suggests it. And it certainly suggests - can only reasonably be read in terms of - a three time period reading.

09-13-2011, 06:15 PM	#10
paydayus Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 545 Senior Member	Demarcation of Hindu teachings as Hindu teachings helps to establish them as different and apart from the Buddha's own teaching... this in itself is a service and offering to be grateful for. Thank you Stuka. Unless one has an interest in pursuing Hinduism, I don't understand why anyone would be interested in reading Hindu references that contradict the Dhamma, on a Buddhist forum. It is sufficient to know it is not Buddha-vacana. My view on the above opinion is it is non-sequitur My impression is the opening quote is essentially a view that forms part of the body of the "Buddhist" teachings I am not fluent in Hinduism however my guess is Hinduism teaches the soul cannot be destroyed and finds a new body after death Where as it is Buddhism that teaches consciousness-mind-body-sense organs are conditioned by past karmic formations Mr Aik Theng Chong in the OP has voiced a point of view which seems to fall within the traditions of Buddhism Below are quotes from the Buddha himself plus contemporary scholars which seem to support Mr Aik Theng Chong's view In fact, one of the scholars below has done four years of Pali study at the University of Wisconsin Even if Mr Aik Theng Chong's view is a debatable interpretation of Buddhism, to me, it does not seem to fall within Hinduism As it is now, we are living more in the past than in the present. Our body themselves are actually the visible appearance of our past consciousness. It is actually materialized karma, the consciousness of past moment of existence made visible. Karma is but the acting principle of our consciousness, which as effect becomes visible appearance, this appearance is thus essentially ‘past’. The position of the body as the product of a passed consciousness and also as a basis of the present one give rise in us one part that is conscious and subject to our will such as our movement, speech, action and functioning of our mind, and another unconscious part such as the growth and decay of our body." Monks, I will teach you about new kamma and old kamma, about the ceasing of kamma and the path that leads to the ceasing of kamma. Listen well, pay close attention and I will speak. What, monks, is old kamma? The eye, ear, nose tongue, body and mind, monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling. This, monks, is called 'old kamma.' SN 35.145 What is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base? 'Mentality-materiality' should be the reply. What is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality? 'Consciousness' should be the reply. What is the supporting condition for consciousness? 'Kamma formations' should be the reply. SN 12.23 For example, the Buddha‘s Dependent Origination, which is a 12 part cyclical process of arising, decay, death and rebirth of all things... The ―missing link which needs to be added to the deterministic theory is the thinking mind, the element of free-will and kamma formations. Kamma formations can be from a current or a past life, in fact the differences between many siblings, can probably best be explained as evidence for re-birth, past lives. http://www.thedhamma.com/buddhaslists.pdf David N. Snyder was born in an apartment in Kaiserslautern, Germany while his mother slept and his father was away on military maneuvers. His mother literally slept through the labor process as there was no pain to her. The Buddha was born in a similar way and the Suttas report that all samma-sam-buddhas (enlightened Buddhas who teach the masses, the next one being Metteyya who currently resides in the Tusita heaven waiting for when the Dhamma dies out in some distant future time) are born with no pain to the mother. The birth year was the (Chinese) year of the Tiger (famous in Buddhist lands as the tiger is known for independence and is on some Buddhist flags). The birth date of David N. Snyder was also an important religious day, known as Uposatha, being the New Moon Day of the month in which he was born (on Uposatha days many Buddhists go to the temple for meditation and for renewing the Precepts). Tibetan lamas (high ranking monks/teachers) have often looked for people with such birth events for locating the rebirth of famous Rinpoches (gurus, teachers) of the past. As you point out, it [Momentary DO] doesn't in itself refute "rebirth". However, we have something of a "serial pest" here - a banned [ex-]member who keeps creating new accounts and try to engage in disruptive conversation. He has formerly used the momentary DO model as vehement argumentation against rebirth, and this has unfortunately coloured the discussion here somewhat. Having done four years of Pali study at the University of Wisconsin, Madison South Asian/Buddhist Studies program, I think I know what the words mean. Humor me here. Where does any text define sankhara of the paticcasamuppadaq formula in terms of vitakka & vicara? Also, paticcasaumppada in its traditional structure certainly does not negate a three life reading, and by its language strongly suggests it. And it certainly suggests - can only reasonably be read in terms of - a three time period reading.
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