DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Anatta Analysis derail: Roles of reason and jhana practice in enlightenment

**Immerymopay** · 08-20-2011, 08:13 AM

Hi FBM,
I don't see how anatta can be "realized" with reasoning. Reasoning can bring us to some kind of conclusion, or even firm conviction, but it's not in the same league as realization.

In my opinion, Buddha didn't set out up front to present a formal doctrine based on something he'd reasoned out. He reported what he actually discovered - no more, no less.

The mistake is to treat anatta like a philosophical stance or a kind of ontology, an "ultimate" as opposed to... whatever...

I also value what I termed the "visceral" grasp of anatta over the purely intellectual one, but since inner experience is necessarily private, it can only be discussed, described or taught with language, which is subject to reasoned analysis. I'm not sure how any of the Dhamma could have been taught and advanced without reasoning. Reasoning alone may or may not be sufficient. People have various talents, and there's more than one road to Rome.

24. Scholars and Meditators

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahacunda was dwelling at Sahajati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the monks thus:

“Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma [47] and they disparage those monks who are meditators, saying: ’Look at those monks! They think, “We are meditating, we are meditating!” And so they meditate to and meditate fro, meditate up and meditate down! [48] What, then, do they meditate about and why do they meditate?’ Thereby neither these monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. [49]

“Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks who are keen on Dhamma, saying: ’Look at those monks! They think, “We are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!” And therefore they are conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are they Dhamma-experts?’ Thereby neither these meditating monks nor those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans.

“There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans.

“Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: ’Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.’ And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbana).

“And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: ’Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.’ And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject.”

(6:46) http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208-p.ht...sandMeditators

08-20-2011, 08:13 AM	#4
Immerymopay Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 492 Senior Member	Hi FBM, I don't see how anatta can be "realized" with reasoning. Reasoning can bring us to some kind of conclusion, or even firm conviction, but it's not in the same league as realization. In my opinion, Buddha didn't set out up front to present a formal doctrine based on something he'd reasoned out. He reported what he actually discovered - no more, no less. The mistake is to treat anatta like a philosophical stance or a kind of ontology, an "ultimate" as opposed to... whatever... I also value what I termed the "visceral" grasp of anatta over the purely intellectual one, but since inner experience is necessarily private, it can only be discussed, described or taught with language, which is subject to reasoned analysis. I'm not sure how any of the Dhamma could have been taught and advanced without reasoning. Reasoning alone may or may not be sufficient. People have various talents, and there's more than one road to Rome. 24. Scholars and Meditators Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahacunda was dwelling at Sahajati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the monks thus: “Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma [47] and they disparage those monks who are meditators, saying: ’Look at those monks! They think, “We are meditating, we are meditating!” And so they meditate to and meditate fro, meditate up and meditate down! [48] What, then, do they meditate about and why do they meditate?’ Thereby neither these monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. [49] “Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks who are keen on Dhamma, saying: ’Look at those monks! They think, “We are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!” And therefore they are conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are they Dhamma-experts?’ Thereby neither these meditating monks nor those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. “There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. “Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: ’Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.’ And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbana). “And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: ’Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.’ And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject.” (6:46) http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208-p.ht...sandMeditators
	Quote