DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Anatta Analysis derail: Roles of reason and jhana practice in enlightenment

**PickEmUp** · 08-29-2011, 01:04 AM

I'm saying that I don't know for a fact that it is impossible that rational analysis is insufficient to know anatta.

According to suttas, mere vitacca/vicara do not bring enlightenment. A person abandons directed thought and evaluation in jhana (2nd jhana onwards). Or are you saying Jhana is not required to enlightenment?

What I do know is that the suttas portray the Buddha as telling "study monks" and "meditation monks" to respect each other equally...

Irrelevant to this discussion as pointed out few posts before.

Also, now there seems to be a distinction between "knowledge" and "direct experience" in your argument.

I haven't changed my standpoint. There is knowledge gained from rational analysis. There is also the knowledge and awareness of direct experience. The former alone is not sufficient to enlightenment. That is what this discussion is about.

fruitless contest of wits based on sutta-thumping...

Funny, you have quoted more suttas and commentaries than anyone else who has commented on this thread so far.

I'm trying to say that your belief includes ruling out something that you have no rational or empirical basis to rule out.

Actually I have. I have done a great deal of rational analysis of not-self and done more thinking on it (under trees) than an average monk in the Thai frost. Yet I am not enlightened.

But based on what some suttas suggest, there is adequate reason to doubt your assertion.

Please quote

If you're inflexible and determined to believe that only through thoughtless/unreasoned meditation can one achieve an understanding of anatta, I ask you to support this dogmatic assertion.

Directed thought and evolution are abandoned in jhana, which are merely stages of letting go and peaking concentration. A mind concentrated, and stilled in jhana does not "think". It may perceive.

This isn't a battle of egos for me.

Let's stick to the topic shall we?

08-29-2011, 01:04 AM	#25
PickEmUp Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 450 Senior Member	I'm saying that I don't know for a fact that it is impossible that rational analysis is insufficient to know anatta. According to suttas, mere vitacca/vicara do not bring enlightenment. A person abandons directed thought and evaluation in jhana (2nd jhana onwards). Or are you saying Jhana is not required to enlightenment? What I do know is that the suttas portray the Buddha as telling "study monks" and "meditation monks" to respect each other equally... Irrelevant to this discussion as pointed out few posts before. Also, now there seems to be a distinction between "knowledge" and "direct experience" in your argument. I haven't changed my standpoint. There is knowledge gained from rational analysis. There is also the knowledge and awareness of direct experience. The former alone is not sufficient to enlightenment. That is what this discussion is about. fruitless contest of wits based on sutta-thumping... Funny, you have quoted more suttas and commentaries than anyone else who has commented on this thread so far. I'm trying to say that your belief includes ruling out something that you have no rational or empirical basis to rule out. Actually I have. I have done a great deal of rational analysis of not-self and done more thinking on it (under trees) than an average monk in the Thai frost. Yet I am not enlightened. But based on what some suttas suggest, there is adequate reason to doubt your assertion. Please quote If you're inflexible and determined to believe that only through thoughtless/unreasoned meditation can one achieve an understanding of anatta, I ask you to support this dogmatic assertion. Directed thought and evolution are abandoned in jhana, which are merely stages of letting go and peaking concentration. A mind concentrated, and stilled in jhana does not "think". It may perceive. This isn't a battle of egos for me. Let's stick to the topic shall we?
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