DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Anatta Analysis derail: Roles of reason and jhana practice in enlightenment

**nursopoutaras** · 08-30-2011, 08:28 PM

According to suttas, mere vitacca/vicara do not bring enlightenment. A person abandons directed thought and evaluation in jhana (2nd jhana onwards). Or are you saying Jhana is not required to enlightenment?

I'm 100% with Deshy on this point. FBM, if those monks you mentioned were just mindlessly following tradition, then they lacked correct instruction, which was the fault of their teacher.

There's nothing anti-intellectual about Jhana but the process of abandoning discursive thought within it is clearly outlined. This doesn't mean that a meditator slides into a zombie-like stew, rather that things which were formerly hidden by the turbulence of the mind become manifest and are directly seen.

When I was a kid, I was warned not to reach up and touch the hot vent of a boiler - I was told that it would burn my hand. Still, one day I deliberately reached up and touched it. I will never forget the pain or the water-filled blisers on my hand. The adults were astonished and asked me why I'd done it when I'd been already warned.

The truth was, I didn't actually know what it was to be burned and my curiosity got the better of me... it was a case of getting direct experience, if you see what I mean. Instructions can take you only so far, after that it's down to experience.

Whether people can get enlightened by other means, I don't know. Some schools teach instant satori and I have heard about the so-called dry-insight way. I can't judge either. If they work, then good for them but there seems to be an absence of instruction pertaining to either in the suttas.

On the other hand, the suttas are replete with instructions on Jhana.

08-30-2011, 08:28 PM	#34
nursopoutaras Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 578 Senior Member	According to suttas, mere vitacca/vicara do not bring enlightenment. A person abandons directed thought and evaluation in jhana (2nd jhana onwards). Or are you saying Jhana is not required to enlightenment? I'm 100% with Deshy on this point. FBM, if those monks you mentioned were just mindlessly following tradition, then they lacked correct instruction, which was the fault of their teacher. There's nothing anti-intellectual about Jhana but the process of abandoning discursive thought within it is clearly outlined. This doesn't mean that a meditator slides into a zombie-like stew, rather that things which were formerly hidden by the turbulence of the mind become manifest and are directly seen. When I was a kid, I was warned not to reach up and touch the hot vent of a boiler - I was told that it would burn my hand. Still, one day I deliberately reached up and touched it. I will never forget the pain or the water-filled blisers on my hand. The adults were astonished and asked me why I'd done it when I'd been already warned. The truth was, I didn't actually know what it was to be burned and my curiosity got the better of me... it was a case of getting direct experience, if you see what I mean. Instructions can take you only so far, after that it's down to experience. Whether people can get enlightened by other means, I don't know. Some schools teach instant satori and I have heard about the so-called dry-insight way. I can't judge either. If they work, then good for them but there seems to be an absence of instruction pertaining to either in the suttas. On the other hand, the suttas are replete with instructions on Jhana.
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