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**Creva4k** · 08-25-2011, 10:03 AM

To me that would be the ultimate suffering. Do buddhists believe this way too? If not, do you know what buddhists believe?

I'm not sure why that itself would be suffering. It's described as liberation in the suttas. I certainly feel liberated by this awareness.

I think the idea is not to believe, but to see for yourself. The Buddha taught anatta, the doctrine that there is no permanent, unchanging Self, whether you conceive that to be a soul, spiritual substance or whatever. Why did he teach it? Because he spent years trying to find and define his own atman, but couldn't. Likewise, upon learning of this teaching, I spent years looking for my own soul/Self/spirt/atman, with the same result. The perceptions, sensations, feelings, thoughts (consciousness in general), and the physical body (khandas) are all fleeting, temporary, and I can't find anything outside or in addition to the mental or physical processes. If you've found something that survives death, escapes the body and lives on, please tell me how to find it. I haven't closed the book on this; I'm just describing my experience so far.

But to the question of what Buddhists believe, that's a lot more complicated. Different Buddhists believe different things. Many DO believe in future lives for something like an immortal soul. Many DO believe in a True Self, despite the Buddha's teachings. Many also believe in ghosts and spirits that inhabit trees and rivers. Some believe in Buddhist heavens and Buddhist hells. Some don't believe any of these things. Most would disagree with some, most or everything I wrote above, I think. That's why there are so many branches and schools of Buddhism. People have interpreted the suttas in many different ways. I speak only for myself when I say that there's a lot of peace to be found in suspending judgement on anything you can't experience for yourself.

For me, wanting to have an immortal Self that is reincarnated is suffering, because wanting something to be true can't make it true. It's clinging to being and becoming. And believing something is true because it makes you feel good, despite there being no evidence for it, is, in my understanding, delusion, not insight.

One last thing: There's also a lot of peace to be found in being accepting and compassionate to those who think and believe differently from you. Arguing and disputing doctrine and beliefs cultivates anger and division for some people (not everyone). Anything anyone believes is fine with me, as long as they're not blowing people up or flying planes into buildings.

08-25-2011, 10:03 AM	#8
Creva4k Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 382 Senior Member	To me that would be the ultimate suffering. Do buddhists believe this way too? If not, do you know what buddhists believe? I'm not sure why that itself would be suffering. It's described as liberation in the suttas. I certainly feel liberated by this awareness. I think the idea is not to believe, but to see for yourself. The Buddha taught anatta, the doctrine that there is no permanent, unchanging Self, whether you conceive that to be a soul, spiritual substance or whatever. Why did he teach it? Because he spent years trying to find and define his own atman, but couldn't. Likewise, upon learning of this teaching, I spent years looking for my own soul/Self/spirt/atman, with the same result. The perceptions, sensations, feelings, thoughts (consciousness in general), and the physical body (khandas) are all fleeting, temporary, and I can't find anything outside or in addition to the mental or physical processes. If you've found something that survives death, escapes the body and lives on, please tell me how to find it. I haven't closed the book on this; I'm just describing my experience so far. But to the question of what Buddhists believe, that's a lot more complicated. Different Buddhists believe different things. Many DO believe in future lives for something like an immortal soul. Many DO believe in a True Self, despite the Buddha's teachings. Many also believe in ghosts and spirits that inhabit trees and rivers. Some believe in Buddhist heavens and Buddhist hells. Some don't believe any of these things. Most would disagree with some, most or everything I wrote above, I think. That's why there are so many branches and schools of Buddhism. People have interpreted the suttas in many different ways. I speak only for myself when I say that there's a lot of peace to be found in suspending judgement on anything you can't experience for yourself. For me, wanting to have an immortal Self that is reincarnated is suffering, because wanting something to be true can't make it true. It's clinging to being and becoming. And believing something is true because it makes you feel good, despite there being no evidence for it, is, in my understanding, delusion, not insight. One last thing: There's also a lot of peace to be found in being accepting and compassionate to those who think and believe differently from you. Arguing and disputing doctrine and beliefs cultivates anger and division for some people (not everyone). Anything anyone believes is fine with me, as long as they're not blowing people up or flying planes into buildings.
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