[Caunnysup]

completely agree. even in the 12 links, the very first link which initiates the whole cycle is ignorance and cutting off the repeated play of this cycle will require addressing ignorance right at its heart.

One who is not influenced by ignorance still has sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phasso, and vedana. These things are naturally with us until the day we die. The influence of ignorance on these processes causes tanha, craving, to arise in one. From tanha the rest of the "links" arise. Cut off ignorance and you cut off tanha, and none of the others will arise. This state is called paticcanirodha, which unfortunately doesn't get much attention in most Buddhist circles because it does not conform to presumptions of reincarnation and hindu-style karma.

what is the most basic or sticky or fundamental ignorance we are harbouring? Ignorance of the Four Noble Truths.

....when the buddha or the great masters say that it is grasping at a true self or an inherent essence for everything, The Buddha does not turn his Dhamma into a speculative ontology of "nothing has inherent existence". That is a later contrivance.

it does make a lot of sense......hence attachment, hence anger, fear, hatred, jealousy and so on as we are clinging on to objects as existing from their own side. The Buddha explained that these arise through conditioning: wanting to have things that are pleasant, wanting to be rid of the unpleasant, boredom with what is neither. The Buddha never spoke of any sort of idea of "things existing from their own side". He called speculation over whether "everything exists/everything does not exist/everything both exists and does not exist/everything neither exists nor does not exist" a "wilderness of views, a thicket of views, a canker, an arrow", which does not lead to the stilling of anger, fear, hatred, jealousy.

i think understanding of interdependent coorigination even at an intellectual level from the begenning through proper analysis definitely paves way for its direct realisation through meditation later on in the path if the practices of morality and compassion are simultaneously carried on to supplement the analytical and meditative practice. I think this is true. Now you have been handed that understanding" "Garbage In, Garbage Out", "Ignoracne In, Suffering Out". Worry no more, go forth and do the good things.


therefore, since ignorance is at the heart of dependent origination, the very fetter that keeps us bound to samsara That "samsra" being unskillful habitual patterns of thought and action that cause suffering for oneself and others....cosmological speculations need not apply....


and not realising the lack of "inherent existence" or emptiness of phenomena is regarded as the most ignorant view, ....not realising that things are "not me, not mine" is plenty, and as far as that goes. Any further elaboration (metaphysical, cosmological, ontological, etc...) is an irrelevant thicket of views.

any exercise, whether analytical or contemplative aimed towards realising the emptiness of phenomena, will serve as a valuable tool in gradually opening the gates of wisdom and severing the chain of links IMO. therefore i cannot agree more when you say "to be thoroughly familiar with "non-being" is certainly something highly recommended ". "Nothing exists" is a thicket of views. Better to understand "This is not me, this is not mine, this is not my self". Even better simply to cultivate the Path: Right view (4NT), Right Intention, Right speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration.


....however, my confusion has still held its ground. ....because you stepped into a thicket of views. The Path is right here. You can still get on.

....the statement "everything exists depending upon an infinite number of other factors" seems to me very self-contradictory loaded with assumptions of those factors for granted without further investigation. Yes, precisely because it is a speculative view, a plot cul-de-sac. It is irrelevant to the quenching of suffering, which is all the Buddha really set out to teach. The Path is right here. You can still get on.

....perhaps its the limitiation of conventional language in expressing emptiness. No, that idea is a trap too. It's like saying, "you can't see The Emperor's New Clothes because you are not looking properly". The statement that trouble you doesn't wash because it doesn't wash, rather than because "it can't be expressed in 'conventional language'". The Buddha taught everything he taught using language and conventions. And "conventional language".

if we search for the supporting factor, it disintegrates into a number of other supporting factors, each subsequent supporting factor disintegrating as we analyse in a neverending process. if there is no particular "basis" designated by the word factor, how can we even take the statement "everything exists depending upon a multitude of other factors" as a valid one in the first place? or is it just a skillful tool used for our conventional minds to have a working idea of emptiness in the begenning? Congratulations -- you see through the speculation, and can dismiss it as invalid and irrelevant to the problem of eradicating fear, anger, greed, and jealousy. But the Path is right here. You can still get on.


it makes me wonder whether description of emptiness is beyond the scope of conventional language. It is illogical. You have done well and refuted it yourself. You can move on to the 8FP unencumbered by speculative view and superstition. Breathe easy.


it is just amazing to realise that the world (or phenomena) is somehow able to manifest itself even when there is no ultimate essence to anything in it, nor in any other things held to be responsible for the identity of any one particular thing. its almost scary! That's not really a realisation, that is a speculative cosmological view. Wrong turn...the Path is the other way, away from speculative view and superstition, and toward simply letting go of anger, hatred, fear, jealousy, and greed. No complicated speculative views to worry about. Just this Noble Eightfold Path. Easy....