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**excholza** · 06-29-2011, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by stuka (MarkD
But surely knowing (and ideally understanding) the Buddha's teaching on the origin of phenomena, including the asavas and suffering, may be helpful in 'eradicating' or liberating one from suffering?

The Buddha didn't teach "the origin of phenomena. Hr did teach the origin of suffering.

(MarkD

Though not if it is just speculating about the nature of phenomena, divorced from the context of liberation from suffering. ...which is what all this extraneous "inherent existence/non-existence" nonsense is.
ITSM the Buddha's teaching on dependent arising (paticcasamuppada) is a teaching on the origin of phenomena,... If it were, we would see the Buddha saying, "In short, the whole mass of phenomena" in the twelfth Nidana, rather than "In short, the whole mass of suffering".

Please show us a Hubble photograph of Ignorance, squatting out there in the Vacuum of Space, giving Birth to the Universe. It's absurd.

...and leads on to his teaching on the origin of suffering. And please show us in the Pali Suttas where Buddha teaches the monks, "Monks, I will teach you paticcasamuppada, the Origin of Phenomena, which leads on to the Origin of Suffering".

The phrase 'empty of inherent existence', although its a rather clunky phrase (or translation) seems to me a kind of unfolding or explication of dependent arising. Please show in the Pali Suttas where the Buddha used the phrase "empty of inherent existence" to describe paticcasamupada or any part of his teachings. It is a clunky phrase and a clunky notion, and the Buddha did not teach it.

The idea that phenomena are empty of inherent existence may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,... The idea that phenomena have inherent existence may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering

The idea that "The cosmos is not eternal" may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering.

The idea that "The cosmos is eternal" may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering.

The idea that "he cosmos is finite " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,...

The idea that "The cosmos is infinite " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,...

The idea that "The soul & the body are the same " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,...

The idea that "The soul is one thing and the body another " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,...

The idea that "after death one exists " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,...

The idea that "After death one does not exist " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,...

Again, "empty of inherent existence" is just another of many speculative ontological views, just like all the others above which the Buddha called "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, Awakening, Nibbana."

but it does seem to me to be quite helpful in terms of ethics, in how you regard 'self' and 'other'. And it may be helpful in terms of avoiding attachment to phenomena. The same is true for every other speculative ontological view above, and many others. At best they are what the Buddha called sammaditthi sasava -- views mired in the defilements. But thank you for acknowledging that this absurdity that is errantly held so highly by so many sects as the Supreme Thing "may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering". You make my point for me.

So it seems a bit harsh to describe the phrase 'empty of inherent existence' as either extraneous or nonsense, YMMV. It's simply a matter of taking out the trash. Why cling to the trash, when the real Dhamma is right there in front of us?

(The Buddha):

Friends, there are groups of wanderers and priests that misrepresent me with lying, empty, baseless,
insincere words: "The samaṇa Gotama, who leads people astray to their ruin, lays out a creed of the
vacancy, destruction, and nonexistence of beings."

That these wanderers and priests misrepresent me with lying, empty, baseless, insincere words for the
reason that I have never said such things, you'll never find me saying such things.
In the past as well as now, friends, I teach just suffering and the remainderless
quenching of suffering. (Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi,
dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ.)1

1 MN 22: Alagaddūpama Sutta, M.i.140 (also S.iii.119 and S.iv.384), MDB 234. Translated from The Buddha's Life
from His Own Lips, pp. 287.

06-29-2011, 01:21 AM	#36
excholza Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 376 Senior Member	Originally Posted by stuka (MarkD But surely knowing (and ideally understanding) the Buddha's teaching on the origin of phenomena, including the asavas and suffering, may be helpful in 'eradicating' or liberating one from suffering? The Buddha didn't teach "the origin of phenomena. Hr did teach the origin of suffering. (MarkDThough not if it is just speculating about the nature of phenomena, divorced from the context of liberation from suffering. ...which is what all this extraneous "inherent existence/non-existence" nonsense is. ITSM the Buddha's teaching on dependent arising (paticcasamuppada) is a teaching on the origin of phenomena,... If it were, we would see the Buddha saying, "In short, the whole mass of phenomena" in the twelfth Nidana, rather than "In short, the whole mass of suffering". Please show us a Hubble photograph of Ignorance, squatting out there in the Vacuum of Space, giving Birth to the Universe. It's absurd. ...and leads on to his teaching on the origin of suffering. And please show us in the Pali Suttas where Buddha teaches the monks, "Monks, I will teach you paticcasamuppada, the Origin of Phenomena, which leads on to the Origin of Suffering". The phrase 'empty of inherent existence', although its a rather clunky phrase (or translation) seems to me a kind of unfolding or explication of dependent arising. Please show in the Pali Suttas where the Buddha used the phrase "empty of inherent existence" to describe paticcasamupada or any part of his teachings. It is a clunky phrase and a clunky notion, and the Buddha did not teach it. The idea that phenomena are empty of inherent existence may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,... The idea that phenomena have inherent existence may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering The idea that "The cosmos is not eternal" may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering. The idea that "The cosmos is eternal" may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering. The idea that "he cosmos is finite " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,... The idea that "The cosmos is infinite " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,... The idea that "The soul & the body are the same " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,... The idea that "The soul is one thing and the body another " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,... The idea that "after death one exists " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,... The idea that "After death one does not exist " may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering,... Again, "empty of inherent existence" is just another of many speculative ontological views, just like all the others above which the Buddha called "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, Awakening, Nibbana." but it does seem to me to be quite helpful in terms of ethics, in how you regard 'self' and 'other'. And it may be helpful in terms of avoiding attachment to phenomena. The same is true for every other speculative ontological view above, and many others. At best they are what the Buddha called sammaditthi sasava -- views mired in the defilements. But thank you for acknowledging that this absurdity that is errantly held so highly by so many sects as the Supreme Thing "may or may not be helpful to.......the process of liberation from suffering". You make my point for me. So it seems a bit harsh to describe the phrase 'empty of inherent existence' as either extraneous or nonsense, YMMV. It's simply a matter of taking out the trash. Why cling to the trash, when the real Dhamma is right there in front of us? (The Buddha): Friends, there are groups of wanderers and priests that misrepresent me with lying, empty, baseless, insincere words: "The samaṇa Gotama, who leads people astray to their ruin, lays out a creed of the vacancy, destruction, and nonexistence of beings." That these wanderers and priests misrepresent me with lying, empty, baseless, insincere words for the reason that I have never said such things, you'll never find me saying such things. In the past as well as now, friends, I teach just suffering and the remainderless quenching of suffering. (Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ.)1 1 MN 22: Alagaddūpama Sutta, M.i.140 (also S.iii.119 and S.iv.384), MDB 234. Translated from The Buddha's Life from His Own Lips, pp. 287.
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