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**TritteTouff** · 04-02-2011, 12:41 PM

Ultimately, however, since as you say, there is no 'self', then there is nobody suffering, and if there is nobody suffering, ultimately there is no suffering going on, and if it isn't going on then it does not exist.

This is exactly what I disagree with. Just because there is "nobody" suffering in our mind's perception, this does not necessary mean there is no suffering.

Suffering manifests due to ignorance. A mind suffers due to ignorant thought formations. This, imo, does not negate the existence of suffering.

For example, when a heart surgeon seeks to save a person's life, the heart surgeon is not focusing his energies on saving "the person". The heart surgeon is focusing their energies on restoring heart function. It is the heart that is sick rather than "the person".

Or the same with a psychologist. They are not trying to save "a person" but they a trying to free the mind of certain "delusions" or "unskilful/unrealistic ways of thinking". It is the mind that is sick rather than "the person".

It is the the mind that suffers and the mind that ceases suffering. The Dhammapada states:

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

04-02-2011, 12:41 PM	#28
TritteTouff Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 481 Senior Member	Ultimately, however, since as you say, there is no 'self', then there is nobody suffering, and if there is nobody suffering, ultimately there is no suffering going on, and if it isn't going on then it does not exist. This is exactly what I disagree with. Just because there is "nobody" suffering in our mind's perception, this does not necessary mean there is no suffering. Suffering manifests due to ignorance. A mind suffers due to ignorant thought formations. This, imo, does not negate the existence of suffering. For example, when a heart surgeon seeks to save a person's life, the heart surgeon is not focusing his energies on saving "the person". The heart surgeon is focusing their energies on restoring heart function. It is the heart that is sick rather than "the person". Or the same with a psychologist. They are not trying to save "a person" but they a trying to free the mind of certain "delusions" or "unskilful/unrealistic ways of thinking". It is the mind that is sick rather than "the person". It is the the mind that suffers and the mind that ceases suffering. The Dhammapada states: 1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. 2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
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