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**Bejemoelemymn** · 10-29-2010, 08:23 AM

"But what's the mind that persists?

There isn't one.

How long does it persist in this way?

Until it is gone, or for no time at all. Depends on your perspective.

Can it persist forever if the person does not enlighten and free themselves and if it can persist forever without enlightenment then is anicca still true?"

Great question!! I can't answer it for you, lol. But am happy to share my personal view, maybe it will have some meaning... maybe not.

I think deluded mind can persist indefinitely, not forever. Eventually it will cease, or metaphorically speaking, die. Enlightenment will dawn. Actually this goes on every moment, it's just that when a delusion dies it is usually replaced by another (rebirth). I think slowly through this process wisdom is gained even if the veil of confusion/suffering gets thicker for a while. But if we are skillful and practice, we can reduce suffering/confusion each time (gain a better rebirth) making the journey shorter and easier. Eventually there will be a final death... followed by rebirth in the form of a Buddha. But even the Buddha's form must disintegrate. That does not mean that wisdom disintegrates... it doesn't even exist, so how could it! (parinirvana)
It is our original face that belongs nowhere, nowhen, and can be possessed by no one. Apparently, not even by the universe according to the Chan master...

So there is definitely anicca and it is consistent w/ all things... but our original face is not a thing, so it is not impermanent. All of this is speaking metaphorically of course... I think.
LOL I have been trying to reverse my perceptions: taking metaphors literally, and literalities metaphorically. So I get confused... maybe that means it is working! LOL, to what end I don't know, LOL.

10-29-2010, 08:23 AM	#12
Bejemoelemymn Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 509 Senior Member	"But what's the mind that persists? There isn't one. How long does it persist in this way? Until it is gone, or for no time at all. Depends on your perspective. Can it persist forever if the person does not enlighten and free themselves and if it can persist forever without enlightenment then is anicca still true?" Great question!! I can't answer it for you, lol. But am happy to share my personal view, maybe it will have some meaning... maybe not. I think deluded mind can persist indefinitely, not forever. Eventually it will cease, or metaphorically speaking, die. Enlightenment will dawn. Actually this goes on every moment, it's just that when a delusion dies it is usually replaced by another (rebirth). I think slowly through this process wisdom is gained even if the veil of confusion/suffering gets thicker for a while. But if we are skillful and practice, we can reduce suffering/confusion each time (gain a better rebirth) making the journey shorter and easier. Eventually there will be a final death... followed by rebirth in the form of a Buddha. But even the Buddha's form must disintegrate. That does not mean that wisdom disintegrates... it doesn't even exist, so how could it! (parinirvana) It is our original face that belongs nowhere, nowhen, and can be possessed by no one. Apparently, not even by the universe according to the Chan master... So there is definitely anicca and it is consistent w/ all things... but our original face is not a thing, so it is not impermanent. All of this is speaking metaphorically of course... I think. LOL I have been trying to reverse my perceptions: taking metaphors literally, and literalities metaphorically. So I get confused... maybe that means it is working! LOL, to what end I don't know, LOL.
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