DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Where do you stand on the historicity of the Mahayana suttas?

**DagoIgnog** · 09-15-2010, 05:06 PM

Note - I'm moving this topic to the Beyond Belief forum.

but does anyone actually believe that the Buddha wrote those suttas down (though he didn't/couldn't write) and somehow magically stored them "in the land of the nagas" until he somehow, after his death, decided that the time was right to reveal them? If there is anyone here who believes this, please explain how/why you do so.

Yes, I'd be interested in someone giving their views on this too.

This excerpt from a biography of Nagarjuna is notable for its emphasis on magic and the supernatural and tells of the Prajnaparamita text being in a Naga realm.

.....The alchemist, thinking that Nagarjuna was no longer able to leave the island taught him how to make gold. Then Nagarjuna, by means of the sandalwood leaf he had hidden in his sandal, returned to India. There he turned a lot of iron into gold and provided the whole Sangha with all their needs. Later Nagarjuna became abbot of Nalanda.

He repeatedly defeated all his opponents, both the heretics, such as Shankara, who ridiculed the Madhyamika view and the shravaka who asserted the invalidity of the Mahayana.

Some Nagas came to attend to Nagarjuna's teachings and requested him to visit the Land the Nagas. Having taught the Naga King and his subjects, Nagarjuna returned with the text of the Prajnaparamita in One Hundred Thousand Verses and its abbreviated form. With these scriptures he revived the Mahayana tradition.

He himself composed many treatises elucidating the view of the Madhyamika and setting a reference point to the whole Mahayana philosophy on relative and absolute truths.
In accordance with the prediction of Arya Tara, Nagarjuna went to leave and teach in South India. There, too, he composed many treatises. His teachings on Vinaya were equaled to Lord Buddha's First Turning of the Wheel of Dharma, his teachings on emptiness to the Second Turning, and his Collection of Praises (such as the Praise to the Absolute Expanse) to the Third Turning.

Once a young prince, who coveted his father's kingdom, was told by his mother, "Your father's life is linked to that of Master Nagarjuna who himself attained eternal life. Therefore, you will never rule the kingdom." Later not bearing her son's unhappiness, the queen added, "Nagarjuna is a Bodhisattva, if you ask him for his head, he will give to you." The prince did accordingly, and Nagarjuna consented to give his head. But although the prince struck with his sword again and again, the master's neck could not be severed. Nagarjuna said, "Once when I was cutting kusha grass I cut off the head of an insect.

The karmic consequence of this act can still affect me and you can easily kill me with a blade of kusha grass." The prince tried and at the first stroke the masters' head fell on the ground. Milk, not blood, poured out and the severed head spoke: "I shall now go to Tushita heaven, but later I shall return in this very same body."

Afraid, the prince, threw the head far away. However both the head and body of Nagarjuna turned into stone and it is said that the head, slowly but surely, moves closer to its trunk and that eventually, when the two reunite, Nagarjuna will revive and perform vast deeds for the benefit of the Doctrine and beings.
http://www.rangjung.com/authors/Nagarjuna.htm

However, on the Zensite we have this article :

"The problem of the historical Nagarjuna revisited" :

"Claims about the life of Nagarjuna are often asserted as if the facts were known and secure, when they are not. Those who explore the evidence in quest of more secure facts come up with contradictory conclusions."

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/..._Nagarjuna.htm

09-15-2010, 05:06 PM	#2
DagoIgnog Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 559 Senior Member	Note - I'm moving this topic to the Beyond Belief forum. but does anyone actually believe that the Buddha wrote those suttas down (though he didn't/couldn't write) and somehow magically stored them "in the land of the nagas" until he somehow, after his death, decided that the time was right to reveal them? If there is anyone here who believes this, please explain how/why you do so. Yes, I'd be interested in someone giving their views on this too. This excerpt from a biography of Nagarjuna is notable for its emphasis on magic and the supernatural and tells of the Prajnaparamita text being in a Naga realm. .....The alchemist, thinking that Nagarjuna was no longer able to leave the island taught him how to make gold. Then Nagarjuna, by means of the sandalwood leaf he had hidden in his sandal, returned to India. There he turned a lot of iron into gold and provided the whole Sangha with all their needs. Later Nagarjuna became abbot of Nalanda. He repeatedly defeated all his opponents, both the heretics, such as Shankara, who ridiculed the Madhyamika view and the shravaka who asserted the invalidity of the Mahayana. Some Nagas came to attend to Nagarjuna's teachings and requested him to visit the Land the Nagas. Having taught the Naga King and his subjects, Nagarjuna returned with the text of the Prajnaparamita in One Hundred Thousand Verses and its abbreviated form. With these scriptures he revived the Mahayana tradition. He himself composed many treatises elucidating the view of the Madhyamika and setting a reference point to the whole Mahayana philosophy on relative and absolute truths. In accordance with the prediction of Arya Tara, Nagarjuna went to leave and teach in South India. There, too, he composed many treatises. His teachings on Vinaya were equaled to Lord Buddha's First Turning of the Wheel of Dharma, his teachings on emptiness to the Second Turning, and his Collection of Praises (such as the Praise to the Absolute Expanse) to the Third Turning. Once a young prince, who coveted his father's kingdom, was told by his mother, "Your father's life is linked to that of Master Nagarjuna who himself attained eternal life. Therefore, you will never rule the kingdom." Later not bearing her son's unhappiness, the queen added, "Nagarjuna is a Bodhisattva, if you ask him for his head, he will give to you." The prince did accordingly, and Nagarjuna consented to give his head. But although the prince struck with his sword again and again, the master's neck could not be severed. Nagarjuna said, "Once when I was cutting kusha grass I cut off the head of an insect. The karmic consequence of this act can still affect me and you can easily kill me with a blade of kusha grass." The prince tried and at the first stroke the masters' head fell on the ground. Milk, not blood, poured out and the severed head spoke: "I shall now go to Tushita heaven, but later I shall return in this very same body." Afraid, the prince, threw the head far away. However both the head and body of Nagarjuna turned into stone and it is said that the head, slowly but surely, moves closer to its trunk and that eventually, when the two reunite, Nagarjuna will revive and perform vast deeds for the benefit of the Doctrine and beings. http://www.rangjung.com/authors/Nagarjuna.htm However, on the Zensite we have this article : "The problem of the historical Nagarjuna revisited" : "Claims about the life of Nagarjuna are often asserted as if the facts were known and secure, when they are not. Those who explore the evidence in quest of more secure facts come up with contradictory conclusions." http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/..._Nagarjuna.htm
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