DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post

**BliliBoopsy** · 05-20-2012, 04:12 PM

...the cessation of concepts/conceptual thinking in the 2nd Jhana....

My initial questions are about whether i have understood these jhana experiences correctly:
Is the 8th Jhana a twilight of perception where the meditator finds it hard to tell whether he/she is perceiving?
Is the 9th Jhana's "cessation of perception" a mind without conscious activity aka blank?

welcome Troy

on this subject, we have conviction in Ajahn Brahm's book: Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, and based on his explanation, the answers to your questions are "yes".

much of AB's book can be researched here. just place 'cessation' or other words into the search ('Go') box

as for your description of what ceases in the 2nd jhana, it is something far more subtle than that. "concepts/conceptual thinking" as a description of the Pali words vitakka & vicara is far from the reality of the 1st jhana.

again, Ajahn Brahm basically explains this to our satisfaction, where he describes the jhana "wobble"

kind regards

element

Ajahn Brahm said:

The Wobble (Vitakka and Vicara)

All jhanas are states of unmoving bliss, almost. However, in the first jhana, there is some movement discernible. I call this movement the “wobble” of first jhãna. One is aware of great bliss, so powerful it has subdued completely the part of the ego that wills and does. In jhana, one is on automatic pilot, as it were, with no sense of being in control. However, the bliss is so delicious that it can generate a small residue of attachment. The mind instinctively grasps at the bliss. Because the bliss of the first jhana is fuelled by letting go, such involuntary grasping weakens the bliss. Seeing the bliss weaken, the mind automatically lets go of its grasping, and the bliss increases in power again. The mind then grasps again, then go again. Such subtle involuntary movement gives rise to the wobble of the first jhana.

This process can be perceived in another way. As the bliss weakens because of the involuntary grasping, it seems as if mindfulness [the mind] moves a small distance away from the bliss. Then the mindfulness [the mind] gets pulled back into the bliss as the mind automatically lets go. This back—and-forth movement is a second way of describing the wobble.

This wobble is, in fact, the pair of first jhana factors called vitakka and vicãra. Vitakka is the automatic movement back into the bliss; vicãra is the involuntary grasping of the bliss. Some commentators explain vitakka and vicãra as “initial thought” and “sustained thought:’ While in other contexts this pair can refer to thought, in jhana they certainly mean something else. It is impossible that such a gross activity as thinking can exist in such a refined state as jhana. In fact, thinking ceases a long time prior to jhana. In jhana, vitakka and vicãra are both subverbal and so do not qualify as thought. Vitakka is the subverbal movement of mind back into the bliss. Vicara is the subverhal movement of mind that holds on to the bliss. Outside of jhana, such movements of mind will often generate thought, and sometimes speech. But in jhana, vitakka and vicira are too subtle to create any thought. All they are capable of doing is moving mindfulness [the mind] back into the bliss and holding mindfulness [the mind] there. Commentary by Element:

In my opinion, AB may have not used the term 'mindfulness' accurately & correctly above. Possibly the word 'mindfulness' should be replaced with 'the mind'.

Correctly, AB states vitakka is the automatic movement back into the bliss and vicãra is the involuntary grasping of the bliss.

But the wholesome path factor of mindfulness [recollection] serves the function of releasing the grasping to the bliss & moving the mind back away from the bliss (i.e., maintaining the mind in a spacious non-attached relationship with the bliss).

In other words, it is the mind (rather than 'mindfulness') that gets pulled by vitakka & vicara towards the bliss. Then, when mindfulness discerns vitakka & vicara pulling the mind towards the bliss; mindfulness releases/liberates the mind from its grasping.

Thus, vitakka & vicara, fuelled by ignorance, move [the mind] towards & grasp the bliss. Then mindfulness, as a path factor, guided by wisdom, engages letting go, which moves the mind away from the bliss.

Thus, as described in MN 111, (right) perception, (right) intention, (right) zeal, (right) decision, (right) mindfulness, etc, maintain the mind in the vision of Nibbana (escape) rather than allow vitakka & vicara to become pre-occupied with the bliss. MN 111

There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed vitakka & vicara. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — vitakka, vicara, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, zeal, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

05-20-2012, 04:12 PM	#2
BliliBoopsy Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 429 Senior Member	...the cessation of concepts/conceptual thinking in the 2nd Jhana.... My initial questions are about whether i have understood these jhana experiences correctly: Is the 8th Jhana a twilight of perception where the meditator finds it hard to tell whether he/she is perceiving? Is the 9th Jhana's "cessation of perception" a mind without conscious activity aka blank? welcome Troy on this subject, we have conviction in Ajahn Brahm's book: Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, and based on his explanation, the answers to your questions are "yes". much of AB's book can be researched here. just place 'cessation' or other words into the search ('Go') box as for your description of what ceases in the 2nd jhana, it is something far more subtle than that. "concepts/conceptual thinking" as a description of the Pali words vitakka & vicara is far from the reality of the 1st jhana. again, Ajahn Brahm basically explains this to our satisfaction, where he describes the jhana "wobble" kind regards element Ajahn Brahm said: The Wobble (Vitakka and Vicara) All jhanas are states of unmoving bliss, almost. However, in the first jhana, there is some movement discernible. I call this movement the “wobble” of first jhãna. One is aware of great bliss, so powerful it has subdued completely the part of the ego that wills and does. In jhana, one is on automatic pilot, as it were, with no sense of being in control. However, the bliss is so delicious that it can generate a small residue of attachment. The mind instinctively grasps at the bliss. Because the bliss of the first jhana is fuelled by letting go, such involuntary grasping weakens the bliss. Seeing the bliss weaken, the mind automatically lets go of its grasping, and the bliss increases in power again. The mind then grasps again, then go again. Such subtle involuntary movement gives rise to the wobble of the first jhana. This process can be perceived in another way. As the bliss weakens because of the involuntary grasping, it seems as if mindfulness [the mind] moves a small distance away from the bliss. Then the mindfulness [the mind] gets pulled back into the bliss as the mind automatically lets go. This back—and-forth movement is a second way of describing the wobble. This wobble is, in fact, the pair of first jhana factors called vitakka and vicãra. Vitakka is the automatic movement back into the bliss; vicãra is the involuntary grasping of the bliss. Some commentators explain vitakka and vicãra as “initial thought” and “sustained thought:’ While in other contexts this pair can refer to thought, in jhana they certainly mean something else. It is impossible that such a gross activity as thinking can exist in such a refined state as jhana. In fact, thinking ceases a long time prior to jhana. In jhana, vitakka and vicãra are both subverbal and so do not qualify as thought. Vitakka is the subverbal movement of mind back into the bliss. Vicara is the subverhal movement of mind that holds on to the bliss. Outside of jhana, such movements of mind will often generate thought, and sometimes speech. But in jhana, vitakka and vicira are too subtle to create any thought. All they are capable of doing is moving mindfulness [the mind] back into the bliss and holding mindfulness [the mind] there. Commentary by Element: In my opinion, AB may have not used the term 'mindfulness' accurately & correctly above. Possibly the word 'mindfulness' should be replaced with 'the mind'. Correctly, AB states vitakka is the automatic movement back into the bliss and vicãra is the involuntary grasping of the bliss. But the wholesome path factor of mindfulness [recollection] serves the function of releasing the grasping to the bliss & moving the mind back away from the bliss (i.e., maintaining the mind in a spacious non-attached relationship with the bliss). In other words, it is the mind (rather than 'mindfulness') that gets pulled by vitakka & vicara towards the bliss. Then, when mindfulness discerns vitakka & vicara pulling the mind towards the bliss; mindfulness releases/liberates the mind from its grasping. Thus, vitakka & vicara, fuelled by ignorance, move [the mind] towards & grasp the bliss. Then mindfulness, as a path factor, guided by wisdom, engages letting go, which moves the mind away from the bliss. Thus, as described in MN 111, (right) perception, (right) intention, (right) zeal, (right) decision, (right) mindfulness, etc, maintain the mind in the vision of Nibbana (escape) rather than allow vitakka & vicara to become pre-occupied with the bliss. MN 111 There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed vitakka & vicara. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — vitakka, vicara, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, zeal, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
	Quote