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**TubOppomo** · 06-11-2012, 02:47 AM

The only sutta in the sutta pitaka as far as I have seen where a womb is mentioned with reference to dependent origination.

there is another, here:

Channaṃ, bhikkhave, dhātūnaṃ upādāya gabbhassāvakkanti hoti; okkantiyā sati nāmarūpaṃ

Based on the six elements there is descent into the womb. Such descent taking place, there is name-and-form.

With name-and-form as condition there are the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition there is contact; with contact as condition there is feeling. Now it is for one who feels that I make known: “This is suffering,” “This is the origin of suffering,” “This is the cessation of suffering,” “This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.”

AN 3.61 Upādāya (adv.) [ger. of upādiyati] -- 1. (as prep. with acc.) lit. "taking it up" (as such & such), i. e. (a) out of, as, for; in phrase anukampaŋ upādāya out of pity or mercy

Avakkanti (f.) [fr. avakkamati] entry, appearance, coming down into

Okkanti (f.) [fr. okkamati] entry (lit. descent), appearance, coming to be. although the Pali seems difficult here, including the word 'sati', when reading it in context, it seems to refer to the appearance of the 'sentient being', i.e., a being that feels vedana, i.e., has a nervous system. for a being that feels, Buddha teaches the four noble truths, namely, the way of stopping craving arising in respect to feeling.

instead of descent 'into' a womb, probably descent 'from' a womb. 'okkanti' also means 'to enter' (used in sutta about stream-entry). so it sounds like: "taking the six elements out of the womb, body-&-mind enter [into the world]

this verse is similar to MN 38, which describes the life cycle, as follows:

Then for nine or ten months the mother shelters the embryo in her womb with great anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, at the end of nine or ten months, she gives birth with great anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, when the child is born, she feeds it with her own blood — for mother's milk is called blood in the discipline of the noble ones.

Then, as the child grows and his faculties mature, he plays at children's games: toy plows, stick games, somersaults, toy windmills, toy measures, toy carts, and a toy bow & arrow.

As he grows and his faculties mature, he enjoys himself provided & endowed with the five strings of sensuality: forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, accompanied with sensual desire; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, accompanied with sensual desire.

On seeing a form with the eye, he is infatuated with pleasing forms, and gets upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness unestablished with limited awareness. He doesn't discern, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Engaged thus in compliance & opposition, he relishes any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — welcomes it, & remains fastened to it. As he relishes that feeling, welcomes it, & remains fastened to it, delight arises. Now, any delight in feeling is clinging/sustenance. From his clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

On hearing a sound with the ear...

On smelling an aroma with the nose...

On tasting a flavor with the tongue...

On sensing a tactile sensation with the body...

On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is infatuated with pleasing ideas, and gets upset over unpleasing ideas. He dwells with body-mindfulness unestablished, with limited awareness. He doesn't discern, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Engaged thus in compliance & opposition, he relishes any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — welcomes it, & remains fastened to it. As he relishes that feeling, welcomes it, & remains fastened to it, delight arises. Now, any delight in feeling is clinging/sustenance. From his clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

MN 38

however, despite AN 3.61 & MN 38, i still find it difficult to reconcile the Mahanidana Sutta:

If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?

No, lord.

If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?

No, lord.

If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?

No, lord.

(Thanissaro) If consciousness were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would name-&-form take shape in the womb?

Certainly not, bhante.

If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-&-form be generated into this present state of being?

Certainly not, bhante.

If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-&-form grow up, develop, and reach maturity?

Certainly not, bhante.

(Patrick Kearney)

http://www.buddhistelibrary.org/en/a...mahanidana.pdf

06-11-2012, 02:47 AM	#6
TubOppomo Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 434 Senior Member	The only sutta in the sutta pitaka as far as I have seen where a womb is mentioned with reference to dependent origination. there is another, here: Channaṃ, bhikkhave, dhātūnaṃ upādāya gabbhassāvakkanti hoti; okkantiyā sati nāmarūpaṃ Based on the six elements there is descent into the womb. Such descent taking place, there is name-and-form. With name-and-form as condition there are the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition there is contact; with contact as condition there is feeling. Now it is for one who feels that I make known: “This is suffering,” “This is the origin of suffering,” “This is the cessation of suffering,” “This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.” AN 3.61 Upādāya (adv.) [ger. of upādiyati] -- 1. (as prep. with acc.) lit. "taking it up" (as such & such), i. e. (a) out of, as, for; in phrase anukampaŋ upādāya out of pity or mercy Avakkanti (f.) [fr. avakkamati] entry, appearance, coming down into Okkanti (f.) [fr. okkamati] entry (lit. descent), appearance, coming to be. although the Pali seems difficult here, including the word 'sati', when reading it in context, it seems to refer to the appearance of the 'sentient being', i.e., a being that feels vedana, i.e., has a nervous system. for a being that feels, Buddha teaches the four noble truths, namely, the way of stopping craving arising in respect to feeling. instead of descent 'into' a womb, probably descent 'from' a womb. 'okkanti' also means 'to enter' (used in sutta about stream-entry). so it sounds like: "taking the six elements out of the womb, body-&-mind enter [into the world] this verse is similar to MN 38, which describes the life cycle, as follows: Then for nine or ten months the mother shelters the embryo in her womb with great anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, at the end of nine or ten months, she gives birth with great anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, when the child is born, she feeds it with her own blood — for mother's milk is called blood in the discipline of the noble ones. Then, as the child grows and his faculties mature, he plays at children's games: toy plows, stick games, somersaults, toy windmills, toy measures, toy carts, and a toy bow & arrow. As he grows and his faculties mature, he enjoys himself provided & endowed with the five strings of sensuality: forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, accompanied with sensual desire; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, accompanied with sensual desire. On seeing a form with the eye, he is infatuated with pleasing forms, and gets upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness unestablished with limited awareness. He doesn't discern, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Engaged thus in compliance & opposition, he relishes any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — welcomes it, & remains fastened to it. As he relishes that feeling, welcomes it, & remains fastened to it, delight arises. Now, any delight in feeling is clinging/sustenance. From his clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an aroma with the nose... On tasting a flavor with the tongue... On sensing a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is infatuated with pleasing ideas, and gets upset over unpleasing ideas. He dwells with body-mindfulness unestablished, with limited awareness. He doesn't discern, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Engaged thus in compliance & opposition, he relishes any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — welcomes it, & remains fastened to it. As he relishes that feeling, welcomes it, & remains fastened to it, delight arises. Now, any delight in feeling is clinging/sustenance. From his clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. MN 38 however, despite AN 3.61 & MN 38, i still find it difficult to reconcile the Mahanidana Sutta: If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb? No, lord. If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world? No, lord. If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity? No, lord. (Thanissaro) If consciousness were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would name-&-form take shape in the womb? Certainly not, bhante. If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-&-form be generated into this present state of being? Certainly not, bhante. If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-&-form grow up, develop, and reach maturity? Certainly not, bhante. (Patrick Kearney) http://www.buddhistelibrary.org/en/a...mahanidana.pdf
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