DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Nibbana: Buddha's word about it ..(plus Anapanasati)

**Paiblyelaxy** · 05-02-2012, 04:14 AM

mmm...i am not so inclined to agree. if eating lunch, with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. similarly, if walking with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. if typing, with silent receptive mind, consciousness can converge on breathing. sitting back & reading, rolling the mouse, the mind converges with breathing

Why? To what purpose? Why converge with only one activity in the mind-body process? There are four foundations of mindfulness, why limit the mind to a very small part of our experience? Yes one needs to do this if one wants to develop Jhana, but still it’s a means to an end not an end in itself.

it may sound unusual to say, but, imo, 'placing' ones awareness on breathing is, imo, not really related to Anapanasati. imo, such a phrase is non-sequitur in respect to Buddha-Dhamma because the establishment of mindfulness is maintaining the mind free from craving. There is only one essential practise in supramundane Buddhism, which is abandoning craving, attachment, liking & disliking.

True, and the answer is not in the breath it’s in the awareness.

Let us take the later stages of Anapanasti as examples. Can placing ones awareness on rapture be practised? Can placing ones awareness on the mind with anger be practised? Of course not.

Of course it can, though there is no meditation technique described as such. The point of awareness though, as I understand it, is that it is non-discrimantory it is aware of whatever is appropriate to be aware of at the time, it’s not focussed on one object at the exclusion of others.

Of course some meditation techniques encourage placing awareness on one object at the exclusion of others, but this is a means to an end it’s not that the answers are all contained in the breathing if one can only stare at it long enough without flinching. One doesn’t progress on the path by developing breathing, one progresses by developing awareness among other things.

The breathing steps are the same. They do not manifest from "placing ones awareness on the breathing". Imo, placing ones awareness on the breathing is hatha-yoga rather than Buddha's mindfulness practise.

I really don’t see the difference between “converging on” and "placing ones awareness on”, perhaps the former is effortless whereas the latter is with effort, is this what you mean?

Naturally, we do not have the accept what i am saying. It is just an opinion. Instead, we need to stop placing our awareness on the breathing until the mind becomes aware of the breathing without placing its awareness on the breathing. Then was can verify for ourselves that we do not need to place our awareness on the breathing for the mind to become aware of the breathing.

Why get wound up about the breathing at all? if one technique is not really working for you then use a different technique.

However if one does choose the breath as the primary object then for most people there will be a period where you have to deliberately keep placing awareness on the breath before this becomes easy and natural.

Further, when the mind becomes aware of the breathing without placing its awareness on the breathing, we can continue to not place awareness on the breathing even though the mind become more & more aware of the breathing.

This is fine if breathing is the most important activity at the time, and for concentration based sitting meditation breathing is often the most important activity at the time. However when crossing the street or performing brain surgery etc breathing is not the most important activity at the time.

Imo, this is the Buddha's training, namely, not attaching or clinging to anything. Placing ones awareness on the breathing is, arguably, a form of clinging. And no! It is not a skilful means. It is simply training wheels for beginners. But in real practise where: 'He trains himself', I suggest the mind deliberately does not place attention on the breathing. Instead, the mind remains free & void. When the mind remains free & void, the breathing can certainly come to the mind & the mind can converge with the breathing.

This is my point, and the mind can equally not converge with the breathing.

It seems we agree. 'Anapanasati' is 'mindfulness with breathing' (rather than mindfulness 'of' breathing).

Yes, that’s probably a better way of describing it.

Looking at the title of this thread I’m a bit confused how it came to be about one specific meditation technique.

05-02-2012, 04:14 AM	#29
Paiblyelaxy Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 417 Senior Member	mmm...i am not so inclined to agree. if eating lunch, with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. similarly, if walking with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. if typing, with silent receptive mind, consciousness can converge on breathing. sitting back & reading, rolling the mouse, the mind converges with breathing Why? To what purpose? Why converge with only one activity in the mind-body process? There are four foundations of mindfulness, why limit the mind to a very small part of our experience? Yes one needs to do this if one wants to develop Jhana, but still it’s a means to an end not an end in itself. it may sound unusual to say, but, imo, 'placing' ones awareness on breathing is, imo, not really related to Anapanasati. imo, such a phrase is non-sequitur in respect to Buddha-Dhamma because the establishment of mindfulness is maintaining the mind free from craving. There is only one essential practise in supramundane Buddhism, which is abandoning craving, attachment, liking & disliking. True, and the answer is not in the breath it’s in the awareness. Let us take the later stages of Anapanasti as examples. Can placing ones awareness on rapture be practised? Can placing ones awareness on the mind with anger be practised? Of course not. Of course it can, though there is no meditation technique described as such. The point of awareness though, as I understand it, is that it is non-discrimantory it is aware of whatever is appropriate to be aware of at the time, it’s not focussed on one object at the exclusion of others. Of course some meditation techniques encourage placing awareness on one object at the exclusion of others, but this is a means to an end it’s not that the answers are all contained in the breathing if one can only stare at it long enough without flinching. One doesn’t progress on the path by developing breathing, one progresses by developing awareness among other things. The breathing steps are the same. They do not manifest from "placing ones awareness on the breathing". Imo, placing ones awareness on the breathing is hatha-yoga rather than Buddha's mindfulness practise. I really don’t see the difference between “converging on” and "placing ones awareness on”, perhaps the former is effortless whereas the latter is with effort, is this what you mean? Naturally, we do not have the accept what i am saying. It is just an opinion. Instead, we need to stop placing our awareness on the breathing until the mind becomes aware of the breathing without placing its awareness on the breathing. Then was can verify for ourselves that we do not need to place our awareness on the breathing for the mind to become aware of the breathing. Why get wound up about the breathing at all? if one technique is not really working for you then use a different technique. However if one does choose the breath as the primary object then for most people there will be a period where you have to deliberately keep placing awareness on the breath before this becomes easy and natural. Further, when the mind becomes aware of the breathing without placing its awareness on the breathing, we can continue to not place awareness on the breathing even though the mind become more & more aware of the breathing. This is fine if breathing is the most important activity at the time, and for concentration based sitting meditation breathing is often the most important activity at the time. However when crossing the street or performing brain surgery etc breathing is not the most important activity at the time. Imo, this is the Buddha's training, namely, not attaching or clinging to anything. Placing ones awareness on the breathing is, arguably, a form of clinging. And no! It is not a skilful means. It is simply training wheels for beginners. But in real practise where: 'He trains himself', I suggest the mind deliberately does not place attention on the breathing. Instead, the mind remains free & void. When the mind remains free & void, the breathing can certainly come to the mind & the mind can converge with the breathing. This is my point, and the mind can equally not converge with the breathing. It seems we agree. 'Anapanasati' is 'mindfulness with breathing' (rather than mindfulness 'of' breathing). Yes, that’s probably a better way of describing it. Looking at the title of this thread I’m a bit confused how it came to be about one specific meditation technique.
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