DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Is the seven further lifetimes of a stream-enterer a myth?

**Anatolii** · 08-13-2011, 06:37 PM

From this: What means really "non returner"? Seems that the Non Returner has left lot of work to accomplish and reach the Arahat.

hi Kaarine

personally, I am not sure, and can only speculate

in the description of the stream of Anapanasati (Mindfulness With Breathing), the meditator ends the five hindrances, experiences some factors of jhana (rapture and happiness), and then enters into the 9th stage of experiencing the defiled mind, before their mind is liberated from defilement & one-pointed concentration in the 12th stage. then their mind progresses onto the pure vipassana (insight) of the 13th to 16th stages

so i can only assume the 'once-returner' is yet to experience the equivalent of the 9th stage where as the 'non-returner' has passed through it

the Buddha often equated the word 'world' (loka) with defilement (kilesa)

so, offering a here-&-now explanation, i can only guess the 'non returner' never again returns to the 'world' of the 4th and 5th fetters, namely, sensual desire and ill-will

kind regards

element

42. "Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork. In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no round of existence that can be ascribed to them.

43. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be born spontaneously (opapātika) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.

45. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

46. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit, and free of patchwork, those monks who are mature in Dhamma, mature in faith, are all headed for full Enlightenment.

47. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who have simply faith in me, simply love for me, are all destined for heaven."

48. This said the Blessed One. Satisfied, the monks rejoiced in the words of the Blessed One.

Alagaddupama Sutta: The Snake Simile

opapātika: Opapātika (adj.) [fr. upapatti; the BSk. form is a curious distortion of the P. form, viz. aupapāduka Av. Ś ii.89; Divy 300, 627, 649] arisen or reborn without visible cause

08-13-2011, 06:37 PM	#40
Anatolii Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 355 Senior Member	From this: What means really "non returner"? Seems that the Non Returner has left lot of work to accomplish and reach the Arahat. hi Kaarine personally, I am not sure, and can only speculate in the description of the stream of Anapanasati (Mindfulness With Breathing), the meditator ends the five hindrances, experiences some factors of jhana (rapture and happiness), and then enters into the 9th stage of experiencing the defiled mind, before their mind is liberated from defilement & one-pointed concentration in the 12th stage. then their mind progresses onto the pure vipassana (insight) of the 13th to 16th stages so i can only assume the 'once-returner' is yet to experience the equivalent of the 9th stage where as the 'non-returner' has passed through it the Buddha often equated the word 'world' (loka) with defilement (kilesa) so, offering a here-&-now explanation, i can only guess the 'non returner' never again returns to the 'world' of the 4th and 5th fetters, namely, sensual desire and ill-will kind regards element 42. "Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork. In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no round of existence that can be ascribed to them. 43. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be born spontaneously (opapātika) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world. 44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering. 45. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment. 46. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit, and free of patchwork, those monks who are mature in Dhamma, mature in faith, are all headed for full Enlightenment. 47. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who have simply faith in me, simply love for me, are all destined for heaven." 48. This said the Blessed One. Satisfied, the monks rejoiced in the words of the Blessed One. Alagaddupama Sutta: The Snake Simile opapātika: Opapātika (adj.) [fr. upapatti; the BSk. form is a curious distortion of the P. form, viz. aupapāduka Av. Ś ii.89; Divy 300, 627, 649] arisen or reborn without visible cause
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