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**dgdhgjjgj** · 09-20-2011, 11:00 PM

Question 1: What is meant by the sentence "for the sustenance of beings born and for the support of beings seeking birth"?

Hi Element,
Potentially contentious question and folks will argue the finer points of translation here. In terms of my own "opinion" for what it's worth I am more towards the Tibetan teachings on Bardo without positing any eternal whatsit. It's a mere process, driven by craving, so I don't see any contradiction.

Nutriment #1: Edible food, coarse and fine
The discourse on the first nutriment may offer some insight into this sutta, given the message of the simile is quite clear and straightforward

I agree, it speaks for itself. The simile of the parents eating their kid has, for me, an additional meaning. I think that within it their sorrowful plight is a recognition of the profound scale of interrelated suffering. All consumption is a kind of destructive act but our very mode of being is part-and-parcel of this. We consume and are, in turn, consumed.

Nutriment #2: Sense Impression:
Never stops, unless we are in deep sleep. It is the opposite of deep peace. Sense impressions assailing us like flies. Seems a very clear picture.

Nutriment #3: Volition
Depicted as the agent that drives us to suffering again and again. I don't personally 'see' that for myself, but then again, I'm not Buddha. Could there not be volition within an enlightened mind? One that would not permit suffering - perhaps that could be a beneficial thing? It's exclusively depicted as bad but is it (from its own side) necessarily so... ...now it looks like I'm an apostate.

Nutriment #4: Consciousness
Even more problematic. I'm no expert on the Pali but the overriding impression I come away with, is that all consciousness depends upon a base and that it is, in itself, only part of a mechanistic process, like ear-consiousness aware of sound etc. It seems to be an extension of #2: Sense Impression, yet they must be distinct enough to merit their own category, although I fail to see why.

Mind consciousness, as discursive thought - now I can see how that is a nutriment - creating and upholding our self-image. How by its release, freedom from that aspect of binding is attained.

When craving arises, originates or generates, there must also be the arising, origination or generation of nutriment.

This is quite profound and it seems to come down to how much slack we want to give dependent origination. In the dream state our mind creates a subject-object duality - like a bubble in the void - an experient and scenery, peopled for action. Could we be audacious enough to claim the samsaric process we are in is similar. Getting a bit naughtily Yogacaran there perhaps?

But when craving ceases, what ceases is craving 'mixed' with nutriment, just as the cessation (nirodha) of consciousness means the cesssation of craving mixed with consciousness So it would appear.

Just as consciousness can be purified, possibly nutriment can also become pure or be purified Like I said about volition. The suttas don't give any indication that this is so (at least I've never whiffed the slightest) It's all completely cut off like a palm stump etc.

Kashmiri Shaivites criticise Buddhists on this very point and they make a plausible case, if I may say so, but that's a whole new topic.

09-20-2011, 11:00 PM	#22
dgdhgjjgj Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 481 Senior Member	Question 1: What is meant by the sentence "for the sustenance of beings born and for the support of beings seeking birth"? Hi Element, Potentially contentious question and folks will argue the finer points of translation here. In terms of my own "opinion" for what it's worth I am more towards the Tibetan teachings on Bardo without positing any eternal whatsit. It's a mere process, driven by craving, so I don't see any contradiction. Nutriment #1: Edible food, coarse and fine The discourse on the first nutriment may offer some insight into this sutta, given the message of the simile is quite clear and straightforward I agree, it speaks for itself. The simile of the parents eating their kid has, for me, an additional meaning. I think that within it their sorrowful plight is a recognition of the profound scale of interrelated suffering. All consumption is a kind of destructive act but our very mode of being is part-and-parcel of this. We consume and are, in turn, consumed. Nutriment #2: Sense Impression: Never stops, unless we are in deep sleep. It is the opposite of deep peace. Sense impressions assailing us like flies. Seems a very clear picture. Nutriment #3: Volition Depicted as the agent that drives us to suffering again and again. I don't personally 'see' that for myself, but then again, I'm not Buddha. Could there not be volition within an enlightened mind? One that would not permit suffering - perhaps that could be a beneficial thing? It's exclusively depicted as bad but is it (from its own side) necessarily so... ...now it looks like I'm an apostate. Nutriment #4: Consciousness Even more problematic. I'm no expert on the Pali but the overriding impression I come away with, is that all consciousness depends upon a base and that it is, in itself, only part of a mechanistic process, like ear-consiousness aware of sound etc. It seems to be an extension of #2: Sense Impression, yet they must be distinct enough to merit their own category, although I fail to see why. Mind consciousness, as discursive thought - now I can see how that is a nutriment - creating and upholding our self-image. How by its release, freedom from that aspect of binding is attained. When craving arises, originates or generates, there must also be the arising, origination or generation of nutriment. This is quite profound and it seems to come down to how much slack we want to give dependent origination. In the dream state our mind creates a subject-object duality - like a bubble in the void - an experient and scenery, peopled for action. Could we be audacious enough to claim the samsaric process we are in is similar. Getting a bit naughtily Yogacaran there perhaps? But when craving ceases, what ceases is craving 'mixed' with nutriment, just as the cessation (nirodha) of consciousness means the cesssation of craving mixed with consciousness So it would appear. Just as consciousness can be purified, possibly nutriment can also become pure or be purified Like I said about volition. The suttas don't give any indication that this is so (at least I've never whiffed the slightest) It's all completely cut off like a palm stump etc. Kashmiri Shaivites criticise Buddhists on this very point and they make a plausible case, if I may say so, but that's a whole new topic.
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