DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Karma From His Own Lips: by Ajahn Buddhadāsa

**nasdfrdg** · 06-30-2011, 08:32 AM

Looks similar to alaya ("storehouse consciousness") in the Mahayana tradition. Maybe this is the original source for that teaching?

Hi Lazy,

Yes, looks similar as a Coral snake looks like nonpoisonous snakes which show similar strand patterns.

As stuka has pointed, the idea of an Alaya is an invention for an Atman. I do not know about the Mahayana religious philosophical oeuvre but at least I know about different "Alayas":

1) In Theosophy Alaya is found in the out most Mahayana system, the Tibetan Religion. Alaya is about Mulaprakriti as the essence and origin of all phenomena. In short: Atman, Universal Consciousness or Self; any of them endures in every person and is the responsible of rebirth but the most Orthodox Theosophical knowledge speaks about Reincarnation where the new physical body with all its tendencies or Karmic seeds sprout in a next life because this Atman who is the essential and unchanging Self.

I really doubt that the historical Buddha has taught that or something of his teaching leads to this speculative view.

2) The other Alaya, the Alaya Vijñana, in Theosophy is about the Budhi Manas or Superior Manas which works too, as a storehouse of all the intellectual and spiritual experiences of past lives and eventualy the Karmic fate of a human being.

I really doubt that the historical Buddha has taught that or something of his teaching leads to this speculative view.

3) Other Alaya, the Thich Nhat Hanh Alaya, is a courious mixture of both where, as has been pointed out in other posts, Thich not only is giving his very personal understanding as his teaching but also states in his book "The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" in the Chapter that talks about the Aggregates where the fifth aggregate is taught as an Alaya plus the Alaya Vijñana. Both are presented as if those were teachings of the historical Buddha. Both Alayas, the Mulaprakriti and the Storehouse of seeds of Karmic fate that sprout as consiousness and consiousness as the root or essence of the mental fabrications and the rest of all the aggregates.

The historical Buddha taught:

Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you.

"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

Dependent Origination
Thich tells that Alaya Vijñana is a storehouse with seeds of karmic fate: Good ones and bad ones...; where is all what we are and the origin of our mental fabrications (principle of ownership). His personal teaching is contrary to what the Buddha taught where we can see that Ignorance is the requisite condition (seed?) of fabrications (views) and fabrications are the requisite condition (seed?) of Consciousness as it is told in the quote above. The requisite conditions of the Buddha are not the seeds of the "Alayas" as Karmic fates and prinicples of personality (or self) traits.

4) In another Alaya, the Mahayana and Tibetan one, found in the Lankavatara Sutra there are eight kinds of consciousness instead of seven in the Abbidharma where the Alayavijñana is the support of the rest of the seven ones:

In the same way that the waves in their variety, are the rough ocean, so the variety of so-called consciousness is produced in the Alaya. The thinking mind, the mind and consciousness differ in appearance, but substantially the eight should not be separated from each other at all here because there is neither qualified nor qualification. ("The Lankavatara Sutta, T. Suzuki. Rouledge and Sons, 1932).

From: Diccionario Akal del Budismo. So, here, Alaya, is Mulaprakriti or Atman or Universal Consciousness. Thich is doing mental games with all this religious material suggesting a substance that can explain literal rebirth.

Also, in the Vijñaptimatratasiddhi, the Alayavijñana is described like this:

[Alayavijñana] indeed is retribution (Tib. rnam-smin) resulting from positive and negative acts that project in the Self one of the six destinations. It is the vital principle that is perpetuated in series, from life to life.

From: Diccionario Akal del Budismo. And the teaching goes on and on, endlessly, around this ideas that are really sophisticated and out the concern of cessation of suffering because the (Mahayana) Alayas seem to be views for rebirth and/or reincarnation theoretical frames.

Finally, Lazy, I don't know if the quote you have given is from a Pali Sutta.

Of course my appreciation of all this material can be wrong.

06-30-2011, 08:32 AM	#8
nasdfrdg Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 373 Senior Member	Looks similar to alaya ("storehouse consciousness") in the Mahayana tradition. Maybe this is the original source for that teaching? Hi Lazy, Yes, looks similar as a Coral snake looks like nonpoisonous snakes which show similar strand patterns. As stuka has pointed, the idea of an Alaya is an invention for an Atman. I do not know about the Mahayana religious philosophical oeuvre but at least I know about different "Alayas": 1) In Theosophy Alaya is found in the out most Mahayana system, the Tibetan Religion. Alaya is about Mulaprakriti as the essence and origin of all phenomena. In short: Atman, Universal Consciousness or Self; any of them endures in every person and is the responsible of rebirth but the most Orthodox Theosophical knowledge speaks about Reincarnation where the new physical body with all its tendencies or Karmic seeds sprout in a next life because this Atman who is the essential and unchanging Self. I really doubt that the historical Buddha has taught that or something of his teaching leads to this speculative view. 2) The other Alaya, the Alaya Vijñana, in Theosophy is about the Budhi Manas or Superior Manas which works too, as a storehouse of all the intellectual and spiritual experiences of past lives and eventualy the Karmic fate of a human being. I really doubt that the historical Buddha has taught that or something of his teaching leads to this speculative view. 3) Other Alaya, the Thich Nhat Hanh Alaya, is a courious mixture of both where, as has been pointed out in other posts, Thich not only is giving his very personal understanding as his teaching but also states in his book "The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" in the Chapter that talks about the Aggregates where the fifth aggregate is taught as an Alaya plus the Alaya Vijñana. Both are presented as if those were teachings of the historical Buddha. Both Alayas, the Mulaprakriti and the Storehouse of seeds of Karmic fate that sprout as consiousness and consiousness as the root or essence of the mental fabrications and the rest of all the aggregates. The historical Buddha taught: Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you. "And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. Dependent Origination Thich tells that Alaya Vijñana is a storehouse with seeds of karmic fate: Good ones and bad ones...; where is all what we are and the origin of our mental fabrications (principle of ownership). His personal teaching is contrary to what the Buddha taught where we can see that Ignorance is the requisite condition (seed?) of fabrications (views) and fabrications are the requisite condition (seed?) of Consciousness as it is told in the quote above. The requisite conditions of the Buddha are not the seeds of the "Alayas" as Karmic fates and prinicples of personality (or self) traits. 4) In another Alaya, the Mahayana and Tibetan one, found in the Lankavatara Sutra there are eight kinds of consciousness instead of seven in the Abbidharma where the Alayavijñana is the support of the rest of the seven ones: In the same way that the waves in their variety, are the rough ocean, so the variety of so-called consciousness is produced in the Alaya. The thinking mind, the mind and consciousness differ in appearance, but substantially the eight should not be separated from each other at all here because there is neither qualified nor qualification. ("The Lankavatara Sutta, T. Suzuki. Rouledge and Sons, 1932). From: Diccionario Akal del Budismo. So, here, Alaya, is Mulaprakriti or Atman or Universal Consciousness. Thich is doing mental games with all this religious material suggesting a substance that can explain literal rebirth. Also, in the Vijñaptimatratasiddhi, the Alayavijñana is described like this: [Alayavijñana] indeed is retribution (Tib. rnam-smin) resulting from positive and negative acts that project in the Self one of the six destinations. It is the vital principle that is perpetuated in series, from life to life. From: Diccionario Akal del Budismo. And the teaching goes on and on, endlessly, around this ideas that are really sophisticated and out the concern of cessation of suffering because the (Mahayana) Alayas seem to be views for rebirth and/or reincarnation theoretical frames. Finally, Lazy, I don't know if the quote you have given is from a Pali Sutta. Of course my appreciation of all this material can be wrong.
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