DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Karma From His Own Lips: by Ajahn Buddhadāsa

**Lymneterfeiff** · 07-02-2011, 06:28 AM

I don't think one needs to believe in (literal) rebirth or a "reborn consciousness" to find value in the alaya-vijnana paradigm.

All the Alayas and Alayas Vijñanas are about theoretical models to explain literal rebirth and reincarnation. Is one of many models that Mahayana religion has to guide, sooner or later, direct or indirectly, subtly or coarsely, into such views.

model for psychological continuity Psychological continuity is an illusion. The process of perception, as can be guessed in DO and the Khandha doctrine is discrete and discontinuous. Also brain research has gave account of this at: Llinas, R and Paré, D. (1991) "On Dreaming and Wakefulness". Neuroscience. 44: 521-535.

It can be understood in terms of the present life, and can be applied to the here and now through heedfulness with regard to one's actions. Then, there is no need for Alayas or Alayas Vijñanas. Where, along the "here and now" teachings of the historical Buddha, is an allusion about the need for an Alaya or an Alaya Vijñana?

When we practice in terms of present life, the whole Alaya and Alaya Vijñana fades, as delusions fade too.

Cultivate the wholesome seeds, avoid cultivating the unwholesome ones. I think here is all the issue. The wholesome and unwholesome seeds you are referring here are about Samma-diithi or Right View. I think there is a big difference from the Mahayana Bijas and the seed metaphors that can be found in the main Pali discourses of Buddha.

To have found the seed metaphor in the document given by Element do not mean that the Buddha taught Alayas or Alayas Vijñanas.

But, anyway, I can be wrong. So I open this question:

From where does the "seed" metaphor of the Bhava Sutta (the sutta of the given link where "seeds" appear) leads to Alayas or Alayas Vijñanas?

...where other suttas:

"Like the earth property, monks, is how the four standing-spots for consciousness should be seen. Like the liquid property is how delight & passion should be seen. Like the five means of propagation is how consciousness together with its nutriment should be seen.

"Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form,[1] established on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

[...]

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

Bija Sutta: Means of Propagation are about [passion as... or whatever] the support or base for consciousness where honestly I can't see the Alaya or the Alaya Vijñana, if there is such.

07-02-2011, 06:28 AM	#31
Lymneterfeiff Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 418 Senior Member	I don't think one needs to believe in (literal) rebirth or a "reborn consciousness" to find value in the alaya-vijnana paradigm. All the Alayas and Alayas Vijñanas are about theoretical models to explain literal rebirth and reincarnation. Is one of many models that Mahayana religion has to guide, sooner or later, direct or indirectly, subtly or coarsely, into such views. model for psychological continuity Psychological continuity is an illusion. The process of perception, as can be guessed in DO and the Khandha doctrine is discrete and discontinuous. Also brain research has gave account of this at: Llinas, R and Paré, D. (1991) "On Dreaming and Wakefulness". Neuroscience. 44: 521-535. It can be understood in terms of the present life, and can be applied to the here and now through heedfulness with regard to one's actions. Then, there is no need for Alayas or Alayas Vijñanas. Where, along the "here and now" teachings of the historical Buddha, is an allusion about the need for an Alaya or an Alaya Vijñana? When we practice in terms of present life, the whole Alaya and Alaya Vijñana fades, as delusions fade too. Cultivate the wholesome seeds, avoid cultivating the unwholesome ones. I think here is all the issue. The wholesome and unwholesome seeds you are referring here are about Samma-diithi or Right View. I think there is a big difference from the Mahayana Bijas and the seed metaphors that can be found in the main Pali discourses of Buddha. To have found the seed metaphor in the document given by Element do not mean that the Buddha taught Alayas or Alayas Vijñanas. But, anyway, I can be wrong. So I open this question: From where does the "seed" metaphor of the Bhava Sutta (the sutta of the given link where "seeds" appear) leads to Alayas or Alayas Vijñanas? ...where other suttas: "Like the earth property, monks, is how the four standing-spots for consciousness should be seen. Like the liquid property is how delight & passion should be seen. Like the five means of propagation is how consciousness together with its nutriment should be seen. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form,[1] established on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. [...] "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" Bija Sutta: Means of Propagation are about [passion as... or whatever] the support or base for consciousness where honestly I can't see the Alaya or the Alaya Vijñana, if there is such.
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