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**layevymed** · 10-13-2010, 11:34 AM

"Good, good, bhikkhus! It is exactly so and not otherwise! Place faith in me about this, bhikkhus, resolve on this. Be free from perplexity and doubt about this. Just this is the end of suffering."

My view is one needs to take care with suttas like this. One needs to thoroughly investigate is actually said.

The sutta does not make much sense really because the translation says at the end: "no feelings will be discerned" but in the middle says: "he feels a pleasant feeling, not delighted in". It also says: "no six sense bases and no contact will be discerned".

The sutta translation not only contradicts itself but contradicts other suttas, which state suffering ends when the "eye sees a form, ear hears a sound, etc".

There is something wrong with this sutta, in its current form.

Sabbaso vā pana viññāṇe asati, viññāṇanirodhā api nu kho nāmarūpaṃ paññāyethā’’ti

The word 'asati' is the same as found in the conditionality formula:

Imasmiŋ sati, idaŋ hoti, imass' uppādā, idaŋ uppajjati; imasmiŋ asati, idaŋ na hoti; imassa nirodhā, idaŋ nirujjhati.

This being, that becomes; from the arising of this, that arises; this not becoming, that does not become: from the ceasing of this, that ceases

I am not sure what it means but the sutta is questionable.

If we continue to read the SN from this sutta, it is as follows:

12:52: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can be clung to, craving increases.

12:53: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, craving increases.

12:58: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, there is a descent of name-and-form.

12:59: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, there is a descent of consciousness.

Bhikkhu Bodhi is stuck on certain words, like "descent". He says consciousness descends into the womb but is not prepared to say "name-and-form" (body-mind) descend into the womb.

Avakkanti (f.) [fr. avakkamati] entry, appearance, coming down into, opportunity for rebirth S ii.66 (nāmarūpassa); iii.46 (pañcannaŋ indriyānaŋ); Pug 13 (= okkanti nibbatti pātubhāvo PugA 184); Kvu 142 (nāmarūpassa); Miln 123 (gabbhassa).

There is a difference between the element or aggregate of consciousness and when consciousness becomes "engaged" or is "proliferated".

In 12:59, the Buddha uses the simile of a great tree (consciousness) sustained & nourished by sap (craving), it would stand for a long time (and conversely, that of a man bringing a shovel and basket and cutting down the tree).

The Upaya Sutta can help us here.

10-13-2010, 11:34 AM	#9
layevymed Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 503 Senior Member	"Good, good, bhikkhus! It is exactly so and not otherwise! Place faith in me about this, bhikkhus, resolve on this. Be free from perplexity and doubt about this. Just this is the end of suffering." My view is one needs to take care with suttas like this. One needs to thoroughly investigate is actually said. The sutta does not make much sense really because the translation says at the end: "no feelings will be discerned" but in the middle says: "he feels a pleasant feeling, not delighted in". It also says: "no six sense bases and no contact will be discerned". The sutta translation not only contradicts itself but contradicts other suttas, which state suffering ends when the "eye sees a form, ear hears a sound, etc". There is something wrong with this sutta, in its current form. Sabbaso vā pana viññāṇe asati, viññāṇanirodhā api nu kho nāmarūpaṃ paññāyethā’’ti The word 'asati' is the same as found in the conditionality formula: Imasmiŋ sati, idaŋ hoti, imass' uppādā, idaŋ uppajjati; imasmiŋ asati, idaŋ na hoti; imassa nirodhā, idaŋ nirujjhati. This being, that becomes; from the arising of this, that arises; this not becoming, that does not become: from the ceasing of this, that ceases I am not sure what it means but the sutta is questionable. If we continue to read the SN from this sutta, it is as follows: 12:52: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can be clung to, craving increases. 12:53: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, craving increases. 12:58: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, there is a descent of name-and-form. 12:59: If one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, there is a descent of consciousness. Bhikkhu Bodhi is stuck on certain words, like "descent". He says consciousness descends into the womb but is not prepared to say "name-and-form" (body-mind) descend into the womb. Avakkanti (f.) [fr. avakkamati] entry, appearance, coming down into, opportunity for rebirth S ii.66 (nāmarūpassa); iii.46 (pañcannaŋ indriyānaŋ); Pug 13 (= okkanti nibbatti pātubhāvo PugA 184); Kvu 142 (nāmarūpassa); Miln 123 (gabbhassa). There is a difference between the element or aggregate of consciousness and when consciousness becomes "engaged" or is "proliferated". In 12:59, the Buddha uses the simile of a great tree (consciousness) sustained & nourished by sap (craving), it would stand for a long time (and conversely, that of a man bringing a shovel and basket and cutting down the tree). The Upaya Sutta can help us here.
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