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**Zavdpacq** · 08-09-2010, 11:09 PM

In numerous suttas we are taught that a vital part of the training is "not to grasp and the signs and features of forms, odours, sounds etc and to hold the senses restrained"

Any advice on this, i'm particually having trouble understanding the "grasping at signs and features". What does this mean, does it mean perception of something as desirable or undesirable?

any help and advice would be greatly appreciated

metta and thanks

Hi

alright, I'll have a go
We "grasp" features and hold onto them, fixating them as if they are real and independent of each other (and us). This is not necessarily the case, that things do not influence each other - including the expectations that we have (things do influence each other, and this is called "dependent origination"; a self fulfilling prophecy is an example: you make - often negative - things happen by your expectation - good example of Karma!).

Unfortunately this is the only way we can think about things: by creating expectations or concepts about them and pretend these represent reality. Subsequently we may behave as programmed robots, our thinking being the program. But in this way we cannot take into account things that we had not thought of, that were not in the super-simple program (most things).

The real world we cannot "mentalise" or grasp, we can only live, and then experience from the feed-back whether we live constructively. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in thinking or arguing about it. To get into that space of living-in-the-moment we have to let-go of the expectations.

Yes I would say it is about interpreting "things" a priori as desirable or undesirable. You don't know whether they can be positive or negative! If you do not not classify things in that way, you will become open to see how things really unfold (because you are not trying to will them in one direction or another which highly distorts what you see, and prevents you from seeing how things actually unfold/take effect). This openness will allow you much better to take advantage of opportunities as they unfold.

It is a bit like the Judoka who does not have pre-conceived ideas how to tackle his opponent so he can use what happens, a movement by his opponent, to his own advantage. In real life we do not have such opponents but we do give away arising opportunities for beneficial developments by have expectations about them.

Metta,
jan

08-09-2010, 11:09 PM	#4
Zavdpacq Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 423 Senior Member	In numerous suttas we are taught that a vital part of the training is "not to grasp and the signs and features of forms, odours, sounds etc and to hold the senses restrained" Any advice on this, i'm particually having trouble understanding the "grasping at signs and features". What does this mean, does it mean perception of something as desirable or undesirable? any help and advice would be greatly appreciated metta and thanks Hi alright, I'll have a go We "grasp" features and hold onto them, fixating them as if they are real and independent of each other (and us). This is not necessarily the case, that things do not influence each other - including the expectations that we have (things do influence each other, and this is called "dependent origination"; a self fulfilling prophecy is an example: you make - often negative - things happen by your expectation - good example of Karma!). Unfortunately this is the only way we can think about things: by creating expectations or concepts about them and pretend these represent reality. Subsequently we may behave as programmed robots, our thinking being the program. But in this way we cannot take into account things that we had not thought of, that were not in the super-simple program (most things). The real world we cannot "mentalise" or grasp, we can only live, and then experience from the feed-back whether we live constructively. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in thinking or arguing about it. To get into that space of living-in-the-moment we have to let-go of the expectations. Yes I would say it is about interpreting "things" a priori as desirable or undesirable. You don't know whether they can be positive or negative! If you do not not classify things in that way, you will become open to see how things really unfold (because you are not trying to will them in one direction or another which highly distorts what you see, and prevents you from seeing how things actually unfold/take effect). This openness will allow you much better to take advantage of opportunities as they unfold. It is a bit like the Judoka who does not have pre-conceived ideas how to tackle his opponent so he can use what happens, a movement by his opponent, to his own advantage. In real life we do not have such opponents but we do give away arising opportunities for beneficial developments by have expectations about them. Metta, jan
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