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**Saduyre9de** · 03-14-2009, 04:11 AM

I share both Joshua's and Owen's sentiments. Absolutely we should pray, watch our motives. However, I don't see a contradiction between prayer and inquiry. May the Lord protect us and keep us in His peace.

Owen: the questions you pose are most pertinent in my estimation : "What is the New Testament/Patristic teaching on ecclesiastical authority? Conciliarity? What is the Patristic witness as to the proper relationships between the faithful and the ecclesiastical leadership? Whenever there is a controversy among bishops, are the laity innocent bystanders? What is our role, if any?"

I do not know all the answers to these questions, but I do know this: we are not subjects. We play an active role, we are together the Body of Christ. Is this role confined to mere prayer? I would think not, as the Body consists of the different parts working together in communion with each other. We are not passive recipients of information, just as our Blessed God invites us to active participation in His Divinity by grace.

We aren't mere subjects, by any means and part of that is demonstrated by the very fact that the priest (and bishop when serving) faces the same way during most parts of the divine Liturgy as we do.

But they are our leaders. They are not infallible, and so they should certainly be held accountable, especially in issues of morals and doctrine. But in issues of administration, I don't know about that. This is where, in the end, one decision needs to be made and the bishop is the one charged to make that decision. Certianly there are better decisions than others, and a bishop could make a poor decision. But that is his to make. It's not to say we can't offer perspective and a wise bishop would certainly strive to understand administrative issues from all angles.

In the end, in issues like these (i.e. jurisidcitional organization), it is most Christian and virtuous and proper that we trust in the decisions of our bishops and humble ourselves before these decisions even if they don't fit our personal ideal of hwo things "should be". So, yes, in this particular situation our rolw is confined to "mere prayer" and might I add "in humility". That's not to say that we cannot or should not inform ourselves to understand the decisions. Inquiry is good (which is what 70% of this thread is). But doubt in one's bishop over these issues is, in my opinion, a road that can lead to nothing good for our souls and for the Church. I've been Orthodox only a short 10 years and it took me most of those 10 years to finally realize that MY vision for the Church is not what matters and that I had a lot more to learn from the Church than to offer it.

Joshua

03-14-2009, 04:11 AM	#21
Saduyre9de Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 493 Senior Member	I share both Joshua's and Owen's sentiments. Absolutely we should pray, watch our motives. However, I don't see a contradiction between prayer and inquiry. May the Lord protect us and keep us in His peace. Owen: the questions you pose are most pertinent in my estimation : "What is the New Testament/Patristic teaching on ecclesiastical authority? Conciliarity? What is the Patristic witness as to the proper relationships between the faithful and the ecclesiastical leadership? Whenever there is a controversy among bishops, are the laity innocent bystanders? What is our role, if any?" I do not know all the answers to these questions, but I do know this: we are not subjects. We play an active role, we are together the Body of Christ. Is this role confined to mere prayer? I would think not, as the Body consists of the different parts working together in communion with each other. We are not passive recipients of information, just as our Blessed God invites us to active participation in His Divinity by grace. We aren't mere subjects, by any means and part of that is demonstrated by the very fact that the priest (and bishop when serving) faces the same way during most parts of the divine Liturgy as we do. But they are our leaders. They are not infallible, and so they should certainly be held accountable, especially in issues of morals and doctrine. But in issues of administration, I don't know about that. This is where, in the end, one decision needs to be made and the bishop is the one charged to make that decision. Certianly there are better decisions than others, and a bishop could make a poor decision. But that is his to make. It's not to say we can't offer perspective and a wise bishop would certainly strive to understand administrative issues from all angles. In the end, in issues like these (i.e. jurisidcitional organization), it is most Christian and virtuous and proper that we trust in the decisions of our bishops and humble ourselves before these decisions even if they don't fit our personal ideal of hwo things "should be". So, yes, in this particular situation our rolw is confined to "mere prayer" and might I add "in humility". That's not to say that we cannot or should not inform ourselves to understand the decisions. Inquiry is good (which is what 70% of this thread is). But doubt in one's bishop over these issues is, in my opinion, a road that can lead to nothing good for our souls and for the Church. I've been Orthodox only a short 10 years and it took me most of those 10 years to finally realize that MY vision for the Church is not what matters and that I had a lot more to learn from the Church than to offer it. Joshua
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