[w4HPpbSW]

Yes Matthew, often prayers are all we can add. And heated discussions are most never a basis for something fruit baring. And bringing something positive is more often better understood the next day or the next discussion round as at the moment.

Remaining silent is no solution on the long term, but it may suit for the moment. Therefore the monks came out of the desert to contribute their part to discussions, although they adore silence. So there are days to be quiet and days to stand up. Hopefully God helps us to find which day is.

In Christ, Nicolaj

Dear All:

As the initiator of this thread I feel that I have opened a Pandora's Box. t was never my intention to create any division in The Church. I really wanted to understand why our hierarchies "seem" to disagree so vehemently over issues that seem so very important to me. I am not sure that I will find my answer. As a simple man, I just want us all to be on the same page! Apparently, at this particular juncture of time, it's impossible! To me there appears to be major disagreement on the praxis of our faith. I refer to the chrismation ("only") of converts to the church. I see a tremendous danger in ecumenism one that threatens the very fabric of Orthodoxy. There is disagreement between the monastics and hierarchies on issues that seem apocalyptic in nature. It seems that at some level, the church has gone underground! Does this sound real? I could site a number of issues here but most of you seem aware of current events. I have prayed diligently over this issue and have read the fathers of the church searching for answers and have learned a few things. I guess for me it is a matter of trust. Not trust in the fathers or in the church militant but in individuals whom I see as on the edge of heresy. As these individuals are in positions of authority I am faced with a decision as to wether to obey or to follow my conscience. I have heard it said that to obey the heirarchs, even if they are wrong, is the right thing to do. This leaves me with ambivalence. I really don't want this in my heart! There has always been confusion in the church as to the proper way to treat the heterodox. These relationships have never been easy. It seems to me that even in light of the attachment to ecumenical fellowship, and because of such difficulties, the meeting with them, and communication through honest dialogue, plus any willingness to help them is hindered. It is not uncommon to find the use of unfriendly expressions, humiliating adjectives and insulting words against the unorthodox. I know that this leads to their isolation and total alienation from our communion. All of this results in irritating and hostile feelings. One could rightly ask, where is our charity? Is it right in the light of such divergence to say that they are not still children of God? made in His image? There is truly no justification for an unfriendly stand. But can we (or should we call them brothers?) The fathers declare that they do not hate sinners or heretics, but only sin and heresies. They seem to be charitable and indulgent towards the weak and erring, encouraging contacts and efforts towards honest dialogue and final reconciliation. A main characteristic of saintly persons seems to be pervaded by mildness and gentleness. At the same time there are many admonitions, even by Christ himself, I refer to Mt 10:11, 15 and especially to TiT 3: 9, 11 The excommunication implyed here is implicitly clear! so..... I have come to the conclusion that there is definitely error in the church, it makes me mad! It makes me sad, it drives me to prayer, it brings tears to my eyes and a real ache in my heart! Many don't even seem to see it! God help me I do. I earnestly pray for our leadership, I can't judge their hearts, they cause me real concern and disappointment. I hope they have Love as their motivation, I know Christ will not abandon us as He promised to be with us to the end. God help us all.

INXC,
Seraphim