Thread: The true Church
View Single Post
Old 02-14-2008, 04:56 PM   #49
refsherne

Join Date
Oct 2005
Posts
490
Senior Member
Default
Dear Fr Dcn Matthew (who has to read this post as all threads in the "World new and events" are moderated - useful eh?), and all,

The more I think about it the more I am convinced that we are speaking the same language but in different accents!

Actually, I would hesitate - strongly - in calling deification a 'divine act' in any unqualified way. The process of deification is one that intrinsically involves both God and man in symphonia. As such, it is properly an action of this struggle.
...
Deification is part-and-parcel of the authentic ascetical struggle, and so I would rather stand by calling it an 'ascetical act'. All ascetical purification is always the working of divine grace, working specifically in symphony with the active repentance of the human person. Part of the challenge that articulation of deified life has traditionally faced has been the tendency to divorce it from its authentic ascetical context -- either by claiming it a wholly divine act (which is neither ascetical, nor truly deification; it is rather manipulation), or by claiming it is a wholly human act (which again is not ascetical, as ascesis is never distinct from the active working of God's grace).
I think you are using the term deification to refer to the whole process which we now have to undergo due to the Fall, i.e. ascetical purification to worthily attain to the Vision of God (I myself did refer to purification by cooperation with grace). I am perfectly happy to accept that some Fathers have used the term in this broader context.

However, I am using the term deification to refer to the Vision of the Divine Light which shone from Christ when He was transfigured, and this was seen by the disciples:

Going back to the initial context of defining 'Church', it still seems to me quite inaccurate to attempt to identify it with deification, not least because deification is not a thing, but at attribute of act and ascetical transformation. In your most recent post, Richard, you note that your intention in that earlier comment was to emphasise that 'the Church - being Christ’s Body of which we are a part [...] - is made up of us who by being united with Christ are also deified.' This is surely a good point to emphasise. But the patristic language of deification is so regularly misunderstood and misused that special attention needs to be paid with it; hence my response. Deification is, patristically defined, an anthropological doctrine that forms part of the Christian articulation of human nature and human existence. The Church is not to be described in terms of human existence itself, but as the communion in Christ whereby this human existence is realised and restored.
"The Church is not to be described in terms of human existence itself, but as the communion in Christ whereby this human existence is realised and restored" - I agree, and have quoted above from Gregory Palamas regarding the church to this extent, but also showing the link to deification. Again, I am convinced that we must be speaking with strong different accents!

Regarding the title 'angel' with respect of Christ ...

Yes, this harks back to the distinction I made in my earlier post: namely that 'angel' is used in different ways in the Church. As a category of being, it is clearly inapplicable to Christ (as Fr David noted initially); as a title meaning 'messenger', it has a certain applicability to Christ -- as a few (though not many) of the fathers employ it (the most obvious to me is Justin, as I noted, who focused on it rather directly; though you also helpfully provided another example, which I believe is from St Gregory Palamas -- though I couldn't quite make clear sense of the attribution section of that paragraph in your post). So in these comments from your most recent post, I can certainly see that this is something recognised all around (which I trust will allay Fr David's concerns, expressed in his initial response).

That said, I still believe the following to be problematic:

While I do think I understand your intention in this, Richard, it still seems to conflate important terms and ideas. The scriptures (e.g. the prophet Malachi) never speak of 'the angel' who then 'becomes incarnate'. Rather, the incarnate Christ is declared to be angel - messenger. This is, admittedly, a nuanced distinction, yet it is extremely critical. The Son is not 'angel' who becomes incarnate; in other words, he is not 'messenger' in this manner before the incarnation, such that the incarnation becomes an act or phase of the Son's/Angel's existence. Rather, when the Son takes flesh and becomes man, this incarnation is the very substance of his 'message' - the full revelation of the Father. The Angel of the Lord does not become incarnate; the eternal Son becomes, in the incarnation, the angel/Angel (the capitalisation is irrelevant) of the Father's redemption: the very messenger of the glory he is himself as the Father's eternal Son.
I perfectly agree with you!!! To call Christ an Angel (or angel) in general is never done and should be avoided in case people think Christ is a created being; He is not created, but it is He who makes us sons of God as he is the Son of God incarnate. However, I have always clearly identified the context of applying the word angel to Christ: it is in the context of the Old Testament appearance of the "Angel of the Lord", by which is meant the Vision of God. This 'Angel' is merely the appearance of God in a likeness of a human, thereby prefiguring the incarnation.

In the texts for Holy Thursday I have read (quoting from memory) about the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and hair: "I will wash the feet of Him, those feet whose sound Eve heard in paradise and hid herself for fear".

The appearances of God in the Old Testament (usually, though not always, prefixed with the term "the Angel of the Lord ...") are the manifestation of the pre-incarnate Christ. When St Gregory Palamas refers to Christ as an Angel, it is only in the context of the appearance of God to Moses in the burning bush (in the passage in Exodus it is clearly stated that the Being in the bush was "the Angel of the Lord" Exodus 3:2).

If we can say that the pre-incarnate Christ became incarnate, then why not that the Angel of the Lord - Who appeared to Moses - became incarnate?

Anyway, you are told to "Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition" (Titus 3:10) - and I think I have passed this limit. However, I am really trying to agree with you. To show that this verse of St Paul does not apply to me, I think it is important to distinguish between 'division' and 'distinction', and to divide between 'distinction' and 'division': I am not a divisive man, but merely aim to be a 'man of distinction'!!

Richard
PS When I click reply to include a post, the text does not include the quotation within that post. How do do this?
refsherne is offline


 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:41 AM.
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Design & Developed by Amodity.com
Copyright© Amodity