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**9rCR9hWL** · 11-17-2007, 11:57 PM

The ecumenical patriarch is an artifact of the Eastern Catholic Empire, dating from the beginning of the 4th Century. The challenge today is how to represent the Christian ecumene when there is no Christian empire anywhere, and when sectarianism is the rule. The other patriarchates are older and have a certain identification with the Apostolic era, so, in a sense I think, have symbolic importance beyond the question of how many Christians live there. Except of course for Moscow, which comes much later, and yet Russia is the closest thing to an Orthodox nation there is, apart, perhaps from Serbia. I am glad to hear that the Moscow Patriarch used the number 2 million for his flock, which is probably a lot more accurate than his press releases.

Clearly, the Ecumenical Patriarchate ought to be moved to New York, since the Greek Orthodox in America are his only canonical flock. The current Patriarch has been flailing about for significance and relevancy and it's not working.

I think there are too many partial truths here to ignore.
First, The Ecumenical Patriarchate's see includes more than just "Istanbul", notably the northern territories of Greece, the Dodecanese Islands, and, if I'm not mistaken, the island of Crete. He has charge of far more than just the oft-referenced declining Orthodox Turkish population of Constantinople.
Second, to assert that "America' is his only 'canonical' flock must then include central and south America. Moreover that line of reasoning would then include Australia, and the vacant see of Rome (western Europe). I'm not sure you want to go that far, but it does follow.
Third, I am always amazed that so many Orthodox do not understand that our bishops are charged with more than the salvation of those in the Church, but indeed with all the souls in their sees - Orthodox and non-Orthodox as well. The EP will probably never abandon his witness in his ancient see.

11-17-2007, 11:57 PM	#29
9rCR9hWL Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 382 Senior Member	The ecumenical patriarch is an artifact of the Eastern Catholic Empire, dating from the beginning of the 4th Century. The challenge today is how to represent the Christian ecumene when there is no Christian empire anywhere, and when sectarianism is the rule. The other patriarchates are older and have a certain identification with the Apostolic era, so, in a sense I think, have symbolic importance beyond the question of how many Christians live there. Except of course for Moscow, which comes much later, and yet Russia is the closest thing to an Orthodox nation there is, apart, perhaps from Serbia. I am glad to hear that the Moscow Patriarch used the number 2 million for his flock, which is probably a lot more accurate than his press releases. Clearly, the Ecumenical Patriarchate ought to be moved to New York, since the Greek Orthodox in America are his only canonical flock. The current Patriarch has been flailing about for significance and relevancy and it's not working. I think there are too many partial truths here to ignore. First, The Ecumenical Patriarchate's see includes more than just "Istanbul", notably the northern territories of Greece, the Dodecanese Islands, and, if I'm not mistaken, the island of Crete. He has charge of far more than just the oft-referenced declining Orthodox Turkish population of Constantinople. Second, to assert that "America' is his only 'canonical' flock must then include central and south America. Moreover that line of reasoning would then include Australia, and the vacant see of Rome (western Europe). I'm not sure you want to go that far, but it does follow. Third, I am always amazed that so many Orthodox do not understand that our bishops are charged with more than the salvation of those in the Church, but indeed with all the souls in their sees - Orthodox and non-Orthodox as well. The EP will probably never abandon his witness in his ancient see.
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