[Sheelldaw]

Fr. Raphael originally posted:-

01 - >> "I don't think that someone outside of the Church has either a greater or even equal faith to someone in the Church." <<

Dear Father,

Concerning the Centurion's faith, Jesus said, " Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." ( Matthew 8:10 ) How do you reconcile Christ's reference to this man's faith as the greatest in all of Israel with your assessment of it?

Fr. Raphael originally posted:-

02 - >> "We are talking here rather about intention and God works with a good intention (or even bad actually) to draw people to Him. This is still not identical to the Church even though it may lead to it." <<

The "natural" man, which is to say, one who is "not in Christ", is incapable of having any "good" intentions, as the following Scriptures clearly indicate:-

1 - "GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen. 6:5)

2 - "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts." ( Psalm 10:4 )

3 - "The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity." ( Psalm 94:11 )

4 - "The thoughts of the righteous are right: but the counsels of the wicked are deceit." ( Proverbs 12:5 )

5 - "The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words." ( Proverbs 15:26 )

6 - "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:7)

7 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" ( Jeremiah 17:9 )

8 - "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." ( Matthew 15:19 )

9 - "And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." ( 1 Corinthians 3:20 )

Concerning the Centurion, Jesus spoke not of his "intention(s)", but of his "faith", saying that He had "not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." ( Matthew 8:10 ) Thus, the Centurion was not a "natural" man, but rather "spiritual" and highly exercised, it appears, in the mystery of faith; as a man does not arrive at this degree or level of faith over-night, as they say.

Fr. Raphael originally posted:-

03 - >> " ... salvation in its full & proper sense only comes from within the Church." <<

Agreed. However, the operational or "key" word here, in my opinion, is "full", which thus implies the existence of saving grace "outside" the canonical Church, in part. This is implied, I feel, in the Church's recognition of baptism(s) performed "outside" the canonical Church. The fact that many converts are received into Orthodoxy via the sacrament of chrismation, rather than baptism, attests to this. If the Orthodox Church recognizes the baptism of the non-Orthodox, it seems a contradiction to deny that the non-Orthodox received "true" baptismal grace.

Fr. Raphael originally posted:-

04 - >> "And yet God leads those outside the Church towards His salvation according to their means. This is a mystery of God's providence & difficult for us to understand. But it is more comprehensible when we understand that by salvation we mean ultimately the Church." <<

To recognize and accept the baptism of the non-Orthodox is tantamount to admitting that they are members of Christ's Church, in some mysterious "incomprehensible" manner. By receiving the regenerating grace of baptism, they have already entered into His salvation, though only in "part", and certainly not in its "fullness".

Fr. Raphael originally posted:-

05 - >> "Teleologically this is where the teaching of the Church about One Truth heads. The present world of multiple 'truths' is only the result of sin and will be healed one day in Christ." <<

All non-Orthodox Christians believe in only One Christ, I feel, and thus in One Truth. I must qualify this, though, by saying that I do not regard as Christians any person or sect that denies the full deity of the Second and Third Persons of the Holy Trinity.

Non-Orthodox Christians, however, disagree as to the "correct" expression of that One Truth; and thus *some* have "agreed-to-disagree", for the present moment, believing in, (as you say,) and looking forward to that glorious day in which these disagreements will be healed.

Fr. Raphael originally posted:-

06 - >> "Christ in the parable of the wheat & the tares explains why He leaves it so for now. Before the final healing from death the complete destruction of sin & confusion would also result in the destruction of good intentions. Wheat would be torn up with tares." <<

Destroying sin and confusion would not result in the destruction of good intentions, I feel, but rather in their establishment. While it is possible to "uproot" the wheat, that is to say, wrongly excommunicate them, I do not believe this will seperate them from Christ, though it will place them outside the "canonical" Church. If they are indeed Christ's wheat, then being "uprooted" will not kill them and their good intentions. In this particular context, to be "uprooted" does'nt mean to be cut off from Christ, but cut-off from the "canonical" Church. However, this is just my opinion, and I am both willing and ready to submit to the teaching of the Church and all her holy fathers.

Fr. Raphael originally posted:-

07 - >> "So we know there is One Church but at the other pole God ultimately leads other sheep to His One fold. And this is why we say sooner or later, now or after death or at the Second Coming, all will be in the Church for all will be Church. Except for those who consciously reject Christ." <<

I must confess that this statement has me a little confused. Are you saying that Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and so on, will have another chance after death to repent of their sins and receive the Lord Jesus as their Eternal King and Saviour?

humbly,
Theophilus

(Message edited by theophilus on 28 May, 2005)