DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Inside the world's first production hydrogen-powered car

**Pharmaciest2007** · 09-24-2010, 07:33 PM

Here we go. Yes, there have been hydrogen powered engines since the IC engine was invented. The big difference with this vehicle is that it uses a power cell that turns hydrogen into electricity witch then directly turns a motor.

The efficiency of turning water into hydrogen using electricity is about 50%. Hydrogen fuel cells have an efficiency of about 22% in turning the hydrogen back into electricity. So you can see, if you pour in 1kw of electricity you get .11kw of electricity out to run your electric motor. Thats why this technology will never take off in a big way.

Personally I think future vehicles will be a mix of many many different fuels. Much of which will depend on what's locally available. Hydrogen fuel cells make sense lets say if you are in an area that has access to lots of cheap electricity. Ethanol or methane engines make sense if you live in a highly agricultural area. Its going to be very market driven.

My prediction is that gas prices won't increase slightly year after year, but will double triple and quadruple in leaps and bounds very quickly. The way we subsidize and insure low oil prices is like stretching a rubber band, fighting against the laws of supply and demand. At some point the rubber band breaks and the prices snap.

Actually, I'm least concerned about the cost of oil as it relates to personal vehicles. In my mind thats a very very easy problem to solve. I'm more worried about the costs of shipping cargo and the costs of materials.

For example, right now we take it for granted that asphalt is a cheap commodity we use to keep our infrastructure running smoothly. What happens when that price quintuples? The list of products and supplies tied to petroleum are practically endless.

I think you are on point exactly about different fuels being used for cars in the future. I have no idea about how steeply the price will rise but we cannot expect price increases at the same levels we have had in the past.

When taking into consideration the conversion of oil to gasoline I suspect the efficiency of hydrogen would be closer to equal or better per mile than that of the gas combustion engine. If that is the comparison from beginning to end let's put oil on the table which includes the cost and energy needed to drill, transport, refine, store, transport. Don't forget to add the cost of our military protecting oil supplies., Oh, and clean up costs in loss of jobs over time and etc. There I think that's it for costs associated with oil.

Also, as RaiderAdam pointed out, indirectly, the efficiency conversion of hydrogen to electricity could be increased in the future. Not that all things are equal but when President Kennedy promised to put a man on the moon before 1970 the US didn't have even have plans for the SaturnV rocket. If the free passage of oil through the Straits of Hormuz is considered, and rightly so, a National Security issue, then energy is a matter of National Security and dependence on only one fuel a threat to National Security. And developing alternatives are also National Security issues.

The other consideration is that some cities will have pollution problems which pale when considering the inefficiencies of a cleaner fuel.

The main factors of hydrogen as a fuel are:

The supply of fossil fuels
Pollution (either nationally, internationally, or locally)

09-24-2010, 07:33 PM	#22
Pharmaciest2007 Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 407 Senior Member	Here we go. Yes, there have been hydrogen powered engines since the IC engine was invented. The big difference with this vehicle is that it uses a power cell that turns hydrogen into electricity witch then directly turns a motor. The efficiency of turning water into hydrogen using electricity is about 50%. Hydrogen fuel cells have an efficiency of about 22% in turning the hydrogen back into electricity. So you can see, if you pour in 1kw of electricity you get .11kw of electricity out to run your electric motor. Thats why this technology will never take off in a big way. Personally I think future vehicles will be a mix of many many different fuels. Much of which will depend on what's locally available. Hydrogen fuel cells make sense lets say if you are in an area that has access to lots of cheap electricity. Ethanol or methane engines make sense if you live in a highly agricultural area. Its going to be very market driven. My prediction is that gas prices won't increase slightly year after year, but will double triple and quadruple in leaps and bounds very quickly. The way we subsidize and insure low oil prices is like stretching a rubber band, fighting against the laws of supply and demand. At some point the rubber band breaks and the prices snap. Actually, I'm least concerned about the cost of oil as it relates to personal vehicles. In my mind thats a very very easy problem to solve. I'm more worried about the costs of shipping cargo and the costs of materials. For example, right now we take it for granted that asphalt is a cheap commodity we use to keep our infrastructure running smoothly. What happens when that price quintuples? The list of products and supplies tied to petroleum are practically endless. I think you are on point exactly about different fuels being used for cars in the future. I have no idea about how steeply the price will rise but we cannot expect price increases at the same levels we have had in the past. When taking into consideration the conversion of oil to gasoline I suspect the efficiency of hydrogen would be closer to equal or better per mile than that of the gas combustion engine. If that is the comparison from beginning to end let's put oil on the table which includes the cost and energy needed to drill, transport, refine, store, transport. Don't forget to add the cost of our military protecting oil supplies., Oh, and clean up costs in loss of jobs over time and etc. There I think that's it for costs associated with oil. Also, as RaiderAdam pointed out, indirectly, the efficiency conversion of hydrogen to electricity could be increased in the future. Not that all things are equal but when President Kennedy promised to put a man on the moon before 1970 the US didn't have even have plans for the SaturnV rocket. If the free passage of oil through the Straits of Hormuz is considered, and rightly so, a National Security issue, then energy is a matter of National Security and dependence on only one fuel a threat to National Security. And developing alternatives are also National Security issues. The other consideration is that some cities will have pollution problems which pale when considering the inefficiencies of a cleaner fuel. The main factors of hydrogen as a fuel are: The supply of fossil fuels Pollution (either nationally, internationally, or locally)
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