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**CathBraunn** · 10-09-2009, 03:18 AM

david suggested in one of his most recent blog entries to try to tap into your consciousness potential by:

a) dream journaling
b) studying & using tarot cards (especially the 22 archetypal cards)
(and...)
c) getting off drugs
d) avoiding getting isolated or secluded.

he recommended the rider-waite deck for beginners (the most common, popular deck out there).

weeeellll, i gotta problem here. please tender your advice, if you have any notions to throw into this forum:

see, even the law of one material states that the archetypal cards were introduced by the venusians. i tend to think the original set was perfect as is.

but then in 1910 along comes a.e. waite & pamela coleman smith who re-illustrate the cards (the minor arcana getting pictures for the first time). this made the deck easier on the eyes by far, but!!!!.... he slipped us a mickey.

he changed 2 of the major arcana cards around. he pushed justice/balance from #8 to #11, and strength from #11 to #8. to make matters worse, he offered no explanation as to why he did this. this "change" remains in the deck to this very day.

for those of you not-too-familiar with tarot cards, this may occur to you as "so what?". but to a cardmonger, this difference is quite a pronounced one. it changes everything (which i won't even go into here... it'd take pages & pages).

later, along came aleister crowley (who was just as knowledgeable about the cabala as waite was), and reset the cards back to their original order in his thoth deck.

therefore, to make use of the cards as they were handed down to us from the venusian culture, one might lean toward using the thoth deck instead.

so why the waite deck, david?

anybody?

•••avy•••

dear avariel,

i have just read this thread, and it seems no one has actually really responded to the core question you are asking, but then, only dw can speak for dw, so i would imagine it is no one's place but his to respond, in kind, but having tendered that disclaimer, i would, if you do not mind, volunteer my thoughts on this matter, since it is actually a question i have, like yourself, similarly pondered for quite a few years. as background, i have been reading (though i prefer the term "studying") tarot for about 20 years, but i honestly do not consider myself, in any way, an adept, but i most certainly am a passionate and long-time student ... and i am, i would offer, a passionate and long-time student of a wide array of esoteric teachings, and such ... and as such, here are my thoughts and my history, if you will, with respect to this topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
first, the background:

1.) i personally prefer and am most comfortable with rider-waite.

why? hmm, mainly because the imagery speaks to me. it is pleasing. it is as simple as that.

2.) i have a copy of the thoth deck, yes, and i have tried using it to read, for short periods, of several months, several times. i don't like this deck.

why? well, several reasons.

a.) it does not speak to me, even though, yes, i find the imagery brilliant and gorgeous, it just does not resonate with me.

b.) i don't and i have never trusted aleister crowley, and this might, admittedly, play a not-insignificant role in my ability to "let go" and let my dream-energy-self muse over the images, since i do not trust the energies that he, most certainly, imbued them with ... in other words, i am, yes, biased against this deck, and even though i tried to overcome this bias, which i knew i always had, in the end, i did not feel i was capable of this, or rather, maybe, to be honest with you, maybe i was just not inclined to even whole-heatedly try. i am very very careful with my energies and intent, and when i place my focus in a direction, there is, for me, a very powerful response in the universe, and so i do not do this lightly.

3.) i have a copy of the "original" 14th century french set, and i have tried to do readings with it, several times. but, again, this deck also does not speak to me.

why? hmmm, probably the lack of pictures in the minor arcana, but also, the imagery for the major arcana does not resonate with me anywhere near as much as the rider-waite deck does. but then, familiarity might have a lot to do with this, of course.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

now, having said that, i agree with your questioning of this change ... since i, myself, also questioned this ...

the switching of 8 with 11 .... which makes strength (as love) come at the eighth progression of the major arcana, (directly before hermit at 9) and it makes justice (as balance) come at the 11th eleventh progression of the major arcana (directly after wheel of fortune at 10) .... which, if you ponder this, has some interesting implications, one might imagine .... ie, the choice to do this, is saying that, i believe (or waite believed), maybe, that strength (as love) is a necessary "awakening/alignment" that precedes justice (as balance) ...

now, is this a truth? ... hmmm, i don't know ...

hmmm, also of note ... is the numerological pattern and significance of the numbers 8 and 11 .... and whether they more aptly/energetically align with these respective cards/archetypes ..

8 => infinity => strength as love

11 => recapitulation/rebirth => justice as balance

i have long been concerned with this "corruption/altering" of the original, but, having said that, i trust the process and evolution ... hmmm, who knows, but then, as i said, i do not say that i am an adept, or that i am even a tarot reader, but rather, i study the cards ... and i study this transition, but i would be very interested to hear other people's thoughts on this, and on why it was done, and whether it was a mistake or not. i most certainly would love to hear dw's thoughts on this.

-- arthurpoet --

"move sooner, not faster"

10-09-2009, 03:18 AM	#27
CathBraunn Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 445 Senior Member	david suggested in one of his most recent blog entries to try to tap into your consciousness potential by: a) dream journaling b) studying & using tarot cards (especially the 22 archetypal cards) (and...) c) getting off drugs d) avoiding getting isolated or secluded. he recommended the rider-waite deck for beginners (the most common, popular deck out there). weeeellll, i gotta problem here. please tender your advice, if you have any notions to throw into this forum: see, even the law of one material states that the archetypal cards were introduced by the venusians. i tend to think the original set was perfect as is. but then in 1910 along comes a.e. waite & pamela coleman smith who re-illustrate the cards (the minor arcana getting pictures for the first time). this made the deck easier on the eyes by far, but!!!!.... he slipped us a mickey. he changed 2 of the major arcana cards around. he pushed justice/balance from #8 to #11, and strength from #11 to #8. to make matters worse, he offered no explanation as to why he did this. this "change" remains in the deck to this very day. for those of you not-too-familiar with tarot cards, this may occur to you as "so what?". but to a cardmonger, this difference is quite a pronounced one. it changes everything (which i won't even go into here... it'd take pages & pages). later, along came aleister crowley (who was just as knowledgeable about the cabala as waite was), and reset the cards back to their original order in his thoth deck. therefore, to make use of the cards as they were handed down to us from the venusian culture, one might lean toward using the thoth deck instead. so why the waite deck, david? anybody? •••avy••• dear avariel, i have just read this thread, and it seems no one has actually really responded to the core question you are asking, but then, only dw can speak for dw, so i would imagine it is no one's place but his to respond, in kind, but having tendered that disclaimer, i would, if you do not mind, volunteer my thoughts on this matter, since it is actually a question i have, like yourself, similarly pondered for quite a few years. as background, i have been reading (though i prefer the term "studying") tarot for about 20 years, but i honestly do not consider myself, in any way, an adept, but i most certainly am a passionate and long-time student ... and i am, i would offer, a passionate and long-time student of a wide array of esoteric teachings, and such ... and as such, here are my thoughts and my history, if you will, with respect to this topic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ first, the background: 1.) i personally prefer and am most comfortable with rider-waite. why? hmm, mainly because the imagery speaks to me. it is pleasing. it is as simple as that. 2.) i have a copy of the thoth deck, yes, and i have tried using it to read, for short periods, of several months, several times. i don't like this deck. why? well, several reasons. a.) it does not speak to me, even though, yes, i find the imagery brilliant and gorgeous, it just does not resonate with me. b.) i don't and i have never trusted aleister crowley, and this might, admittedly, play a not-insignificant role in my ability to "let go" and let my dream-energy-self muse over the images, since i do not trust the energies that he, most certainly, imbued them with ... in other words, i am, yes, biased against this deck, and even though i tried to overcome this bias, which i knew i always had, in the end, i did not feel i was capable of this, or rather, maybe, to be honest with you, maybe i was just not inclined to even whole-heatedly try. i am very very careful with my energies and intent, and when i place my focus in a direction, there is, for me, a very powerful response in the universe, and so i do not do this lightly. 3.) i have a copy of the "original" 14th century french set, and i have tried to do readings with it, several times. but, again, this deck also does not speak to me. why? hmmm, probably the lack of pictures in the minor arcana, but also, the imagery for the major arcana does not resonate with me anywhere near as much as the rider-waite deck does. but then, familiarity might have a lot to do with this, of course. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ now, having said that, i agree with your questioning of this change ... since i, myself, also questioned this ... the switching of 8 with 11 .... which makes strength (as love) come at the eighth progression of the major arcana, (directly before hermit at 9) and it makes justice (as balance) come at the 11th eleventh progression of the major arcana (directly after wheel of fortune at 10) .... which, if you ponder this, has some interesting implications, one might imagine .... ie, the choice to do this, is saying that, i believe (or waite believed), maybe, that strength (as love) is a necessary "awakening/alignment" that precedes justice (as balance) ... now, is this a truth? ... hmmm, i don't know ... hmmm, also of note ... is the numerological pattern and significance of the numbers 8 and 11 .... and whether they more aptly/energetically align with these respective cards/archetypes .. 8 => infinity => strength as love 11 => recapitulation/rebirth => justice as balance i have long been concerned with this "corruption/altering" of the original, but, having said that, i trust the process and evolution ... hmmm, who knows, but then, as i said, i do not say that i am an adept, or that i am even a tarot reader, but rather, i study the cards ... and i study this transition, but i would be very interested to hear other people's thoughts on this, and on why it was done, and whether it was a mistake or not. i most certainly would love to hear dw's thoughts on this. -- arthurpoet -- "move sooner, not faster"
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