[XKAgustin]

"Rain, iF"]I have always struggled with OBEs. I've had them. Has anyone done validations before? And even if you did, can you guarantee that you were not in a lucid dream with telepathic effects in it? I keep having these debates with people at dreamviews.com but their skepticism is so harsh. The worst part is, it's full of pretty good arguments. I was such a strong believer before, but now I can't be sure. I can't be sure that this isn't all in our heads? Yes, Rainif, I've validated a few times in modest ways.

What's in our heads, Rainif? Do you really believe consciousness resides in your body and is therefore either:

a. Finite or
b. Trapped until released at death?

I know you know that true messages come out of the blue, and not just for you but for many many people. These happen when you're awake and when you're asleep. Isn't it conceivable then that consciousness is somewhere else outside your body or more than one place simultaneously? (Perhaps I should put simultaneously in inverted commas because consciousness exists outside of time.) Perhaps the feeling of going out of body is nothing more than a perceptual shift, as CF mentioned, and we experience it similarly to other people because of the way our perceptual tools (body and brain)are hardwired.

Think too of evidence for a collective unconscious. Are all our minds at some level linked? It's not inconceivable, not just for us but for other animals too.

"A lucid dream with telepathic effects?" What's the difference? Isn't this another mysterious event to be pretty much pigeon-holed and disregarded by science? Hmm, so, love is a biological reaction based on the need to survive and or procreate, right? It must be if Science says so. I'm sure that gives great comfort to the scientist whose just had her/his heart broken.

Have you ever heard of sophism (in the modern usage)? Perhaps those arguments aren't as good as they appear and because you're feeling outnumbered and don't have the answers just yet they're feeling much more convincing than they really are. Question the premises on which they're based.

Do you ever feel like that? What if I'm a crazy person? No, not for what I believe. In fact I associate "craziness" with all forms of unawareness.

What if I am one of those crazy people I used to laugh at that think they are demons and such? Is this all real? And if it is, how can we prove it to them? And more importantly how did you prove it to yourselves? I couldn't prove it to myself. I thought I could, but I can't now. Perhaps you were meant to have the experience so you learn not to laugh at people.

You might prove it to yourself yet.

Can you guys help me with this? OBEs scientifically don't make sense. So people who are closed-minded, they must be impossible. I just need some reassurance about this. I don't know who is right anymore. Don't be sad. Challenges like this lead to you clarifying your belief system or rejecting it. It's a natural progression. If you're feeling ganged up on, remember that there is much historical precedence that shows might is not right.

Both Moen and Leland have witnessed people in the Afterlife who would not respond to their continued existence because of their belief that this is all there is. They simply tried to pretend that their awareness was non-existent. If we're right and the strict sceptics are wrong, you won't be one of them.

If you haven't read Robert Monroe yet, I suggest you do so. He certainly verifies his experiences.