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**Dapnoinaacale** · 09-09-2007, 04:30 AM

You know someone could probably sit down and come up with a scientific, logical, iron-clad argument for why consciousness does not exist, and all the people around you are no more than zombies, unthinking meat-machines...brains reacting, storing information, creating the illusion that they are powered by conscious beings when they have no more self-awareness than the Dell (or IBM or whatever) sitting on your desk. in fact, perhaps they might form a logical and iron-clad scientific argument that you yourself are not conscious either...just a complex biological machine.

And yet, your own experience of being alive, conscious, and seeing things like the color red etc should be enough to prove to your own satisfaction that there is such a thing as consciousness. I use an extreme example to make a point though. Some materialists are so dogmatic I wouldnt be suprised if they tried to argue no one was conscious, (conveniently ignoring their own "You cant prove I am conscious!")

Whatever statistical models are out there, and whatever they say, or whatever experiments "prove" positive or negative, my own personal experiences have proved to my own satisfaction (whether I were interested in convincing others, or were able to or not) that there is such a thing as what they call ESP. And thats good enough for me.

As for OBE's, well, ive thought too, actually, that maybe they are hallucination plus telepathy, or hallucination plus clairvoyance etc...which would still make them pretty cool I might add. I do actually think the "occult" theory, and more so Robert Bruce's theory is right though, because it seems to explain so much of what seems to be near universal to the experience (the vibrations, for instance. Why do people get those if its only a WILD? And how come astral projections dont all just act like vivid dreams? How are astral projectors able to so consistently induce lucid dreams about astral projecting? See what I am getting at? Seems simpler to go with the theory that explains the things that are going on without a)jumping through too many hoops or b) ignoring things that dont fit a materialist worldview)

Ok, If I rambled sorry bout that

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09-09-2007, 04:30 AM	#24
Dapnoinaacale Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 465 Senior Member	You know someone could probably sit down and come up with a scientific, logical, iron-clad argument for why consciousness does not exist, and all the people around you are no more than zombies, unthinking meat-machines...brains reacting, storing information, creating the illusion that they are powered by conscious beings when they have no more self-awareness than the Dell (or IBM or whatever) sitting on your desk. in fact, perhaps they might form a logical and iron-clad scientific argument that you yourself are not conscious either...just a complex biological machine. And yet, your own experience of being alive, conscious, and seeing things like the color red etc should be enough to prove to your own satisfaction that there is such a thing as consciousness. I use an extreme example to make a point though. Some materialists are so dogmatic I wouldnt be suprised if they tried to argue no one was conscious, (conveniently ignoring their own "You cant prove I am conscious!") Whatever statistical models are out there, and whatever they say, or whatever experiments "prove" positive or negative, my own personal experiences have proved to my own satisfaction (whether I were interested in convincing others, or were able to or not) that there is such a thing as what they call ESP. And thats good enough for me. As for OBE's, well, ive thought too, actually, that maybe they are hallucination plus telepathy, or hallucination plus clairvoyance etc...which would still make them pretty cool I might add. I do actually think the "occult" theory, and more so Robert Bruce's theory is right though, because it seems to explain so much of what seems to be near universal to the experience (the vibrations, for instance. Why do people get those if its only a WILD? And how come astral projections dont all just act like vivid dreams? How are astral projectors able to so consistently induce lucid dreams about astral projecting? See what I am getting at? Seems simpler to go with the theory that explains the things that are going on without a)jumping through too many hoops or b) ignoring things that dont fit a materialist worldview) Ok, If I rambled sorry bout that .
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