DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Wisconsin Union workers BUSTED--doctors handing out fake sick notes at protest

**Hedkffiz** · 02-21-2011, 08:24 PM

Oh really, asinine, you say, it is asinine when Democrat politicians pander to the teacher unions and give them anything they want in exchange for their vote.

Anything they want?

Like what? Give some specific examples of LAW.

Try and fire a bad teacher. I'll give you one better - try to identify a bad teacher. I've never argued that tenure systems (there are more than one of them out there) are perfect. However, you have to look at the situation beyond a set of sound bites and bumper sticker quotes.

The facts are a bit more difficult. To become a teacher requires a commitment to a degree, plus a certificate program at the teacher's expense, with the knowledge that the starting salary is going to be less-than-competitive, and difficult to live on for the first significant portion of the teacher's career. If you'll recall from our earlier calculations, the low-end of the scale is ~30K, at 5 years and change of experience. So, as a starting teacher, you're basically looking at starting your career at a salary that is less than the total of your student loans. And, while you do get the option of union protection, tenure usually takes 5 years to kick in. So, you're hanging your ass out in the wind for your district, at their whim.

Now, because it's a government job, there are 2 ways to get pay raises. Promotions and time. Time with a bachelor's degree basically means a very small bump every year. So, at some point, you're going to have to go earn yourself a master's degree, again on your own dime, so you can earn the equivalent of a promotion.

In return for this type of commitment, the teachers have said, "if I do enough time, I want job security." This is reasonable for several reasons. 1) It stops districts from firing the senior teachers who are finally getting into the real (i.e. comparable to the private sector) pay scale. 2) It helps to mitigate the risk of super-specializing: if you have been a teacher for 15 years, it is a real bitch to find a job doing something else and earn a salary that compares to what you were earning before. You've taken a risk for the district, and are asking for something in return.

Now, the other trick - how to identify "bad" teachers. Yes, there are always those glaring cases that make the news. But, real teacher evaluation is incredibly complex. There are so many factors involved in student performance, and only a handful are under the control of the teacher. An evaluation system must only evaluate an individual's performance on those factors which he or she can control, right? So, how do you control for things like nutrition, poverty, lead toxicity, drug abuse, working outside of school, domestic abuse, parental neglect/uninvolvement, etc when evaluating a teacher?

Of course you on the left bury your head in the sand and try don't look at what's going on. Take Wisconsin it's only the Dem's including your Anointed One supporting the teacher union. The rest of the country is telling the governor to stay the course. Your just not getting it. Who is the one burying their head? The one oversimplifying and repeating what they heard on Rush or the one who actually understands the complexity of the issues?

Oh, and that anointed one line is so played out, I don't know why you guys even bother. It only makes you look even more ridiculous.

Yes the teacher unions have destroyed our education system. They hold a monopoly, which the Democrats gave to them, all for their vote.

Yes the teachers have a monopoly in teaching. That's kind of how it works.

02-21-2011, 08:24 PM	#24
Hedkffiz Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 550 Senior Member	Oh really, asinine, you say, it is asinine when Democrat politicians pander to the teacher unions and give them anything they want in exchange for their vote. Anything they want? Like what? Give some specific examples of LAW. Try and fire a bad teacher. I'll give you one better - try to identify a bad teacher. I've never argued that tenure systems (there are more than one of them out there) are perfect. However, you have to look at the situation beyond a set of sound bites and bumper sticker quotes. The facts are a bit more difficult. To become a teacher requires a commitment to a degree, plus a certificate program at the teacher's expense, with the knowledge that the starting salary is going to be less-than-competitive, and difficult to live on for the first significant portion of the teacher's career. If you'll recall from our earlier calculations, the low-end of the scale is ~30K, at 5 years and change of experience. So, as a starting teacher, you're basically looking at starting your career at a salary that is less than the total of your student loans. And, while you do get the option of union protection, tenure usually takes 5 years to kick in. So, you're hanging your ass out in the wind for your district, at their whim. Now, because it's a government job, there are 2 ways to get pay raises. Promotions and time. Time with a bachelor's degree basically means a very small bump every year. So, at some point, you're going to have to go earn yourself a master's degree, again on your own dime, so you can earn the equivalent of a promotion. In return for this type of commitment, the teachers have said, "if I do enough time, I want job security." This is reasonable for several reasons. 1) It stops districts from firing the senior teachers who are finally getting into the real (i.e. comparable to the private sector) pay scale. 2) It helps to mitigate the risk of super-specializing: if you have been a teacher for 15 years, it is a real bitch to find a job doing something else and earn a salary that compares to what you were earning before. You've taken a risk for the district, and are asking for something in return. Now, the other trick - how to identify "bad" teachers. Yes, there are always those glaring cases that make the news. But, real teacher evaluation is incredibly complex. There are so many factors involved in student performance, and only a handful are under the control of the teacher. An evaluation system must only evaluate an individual's performance on those factors which he or she can control, right? So, how do you control for things like nutrition, poverty, lead toxicity, drug abuse, working outside of school, domestic abuse, parental neglect/uninvolvement, etc when evaluating a teacher? Of course you on the left bury your head in the sand and try don't look at what's going on. Take Wisconsin it's only the Dem's including your Anointed One supporting the teacher union. The rest of the country is telling the governor to stay the course. Your just not getting it. Who is the one burying their head? The one oversimplifying and repeating what they heard on Rush or the one who actually understands the complexity of the issues? Oh, and that anointed one line is so played out, I don't know why you guys even bother. It only makes you look even more ridiculous. Yes the teacher unions have destroyed our education system. They hold a monopoly, which the Democrats gave to them, all for their vote. Yes the teachers have a monopoly in teaching. That's kind of how it works.
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