[MichaelfromSpace]

That is not the overall strategy, Andrew, and you know it.

That was obvious hyperbole. The overall strategy is not working is the point. Civilian casualties remain a huge problem while at the same time no real gains are being made.

Reasons have been given, Andrew. The problem here is that you don't think those reasons are good though, and that is fine. But don't pretend like you haven't been told. Man up and just say you think they are bullshit reasons, but reasons nonetheless.

We went into Afghanistan to 1) find and capture/kill the leadership of the organization that planned and carried out the attacks of September 11th Failed.

and 2) to deny such groups a safehaven from which they can plan/carry out additional attacks. ...but created a haven for them in Iraq at the same time.

More importantly, their actual haven is in Pakistan. The strategy of sending robots to bomb villages there has not achieved any meaningful results, yet it has slaughtered many civilians.

Part of the second part is giving the Afghani people a chance to stand on their own feet, to live with some measure of freedom, and to fight those who would see us fail. Those missions are ongoing. We are fighting a war of ideas and ideals. To me this is just propaganda, and i think most people recognize it as such.

Again, you may feel those reasons are bullshit (even lies) and not worth the effort we are putting forward, and that is fine. But, again, don't pretend that you weren't told. Hell, as I have said, I don't think the Afghani people are worth the blood being shed to provide the second point. Right. That is why statements about how war is bad and mistakes happen are really just hollow platitudes. it assumes there is a strategy that is realistic (preventing islamic terrorism by occupying islamic countries with western militaries, essentially the major source of the problem to begin with) and 2) offering cheap propaganda about spreading freedom.

You should listen to both of us, digest what you hear, and then make your decision. In the end, Andrew, I don't think you are really capable of getting the big picture without the picture of what is going on on the ground. Thing is i have listened to many sides (soldiers who support the war, soldiers who don't, embedded journalists on the ground, unembedded journalists on the ground, afghan civilians, afghan government, western politicians, historians specializing in the area, etc..) - and I do have a very clear picture as to what is happening on the ground. The fact is the picture is terrible and the strategy is a failure, and the propaganda rings hollow.

Hence I don't accept any defense of the slaughter of civilians that assumes there is a legitimate strategy in place to begin with and these events cannot be prevented. I reject that fully and completely.

Andrew