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**Mearticbaibre** · 03-03-2011, 10:49 PM

That was obvious hyperbole. The overall strategy is not working is the point. Civilian casualties remain a huge problem while at the same time no real gains are being made.

No gains that you are willing to acknowledge anyway.

Failed.

Ongoing.

...but created a haven for them in Iraq at the same time.

More importantly, their actual haven is in Pakistan. The strategy of sending robots to bomb villages there has not achieved any meaningful results, yet it has slaughtered many civilians.

War is not static, Andrew, and no one has ever claimed otherwise. It fluid, moving, changing. These are not reasons to avoid a fight.

To me this is just propaganda, and i think most people recognize it as such.

I didn't expect you to see it any other way and it is starting to becoming the norm for you I'm afraid. Honestly, I find it sad.

Right. That is why statements about how war is bad and mistakes happen are really just hollow platitudes. it assumes there is a strategy that is realistic (preventing islamic terrorism by occupying islamic countries with western militaries, essentially the major source of the problem to begin with) and 2) offering cheap propaganda about spreading freedom.

Hollow platitudes? No, Andrew, that is the truth and you just don't like it.

Thing is i have listened to many sides (soldiers who support the war, soldiers who don't, embedded journalists on the ground, unembedded journalists on the ground, afghan civilians, afghan government, western politicians, historians specializing in the area, etc..) - and I do have a very clear picture as to what is happening on the ground. The fact is the picture is terrible and the strategy is a failure, and the propaganda rings hollow.

Given your statements here, I would say you don't have a very clear picture at all. A clear misunderstanding about what war is at the very least.

Hence I don't accept any defense of the slaughter of civilians that assumes there is a legitimate strategy in place to begin with and these events cannot be prevented. I reject that fully and completely.

No one is defending it, Andrew. I, among others, are simply explaining that these things will happen regardless of whether there is a strategy in place that you find legitimate or not.

03-03-2011, 10:49 PM	#34
Mearticbaibre Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 413 Senior Member	That was obvious hyperbole. The overall strategy is not working is the point. Civilian casualties remain a huge problem while at the same time no real gains are being made. No gains that you are willing to acknowledge anyway. Failed. Ongoing. ...but created a haven for them in Iraq at the same time. More importantly, their actual haven is in Pakistan. The strategy of sending robots to bomb villages there has not achieved any meaningful results, yet it has slaughtered many civilians. War is not static, Andrew, and no one has ever claimed otherwise. It fluid, moving, changing. These are not reasons to avoid a fight. To me this is just propaganda, and i think most people recognize it as such. I didn't expect you to see it any other way and it is starting to becoming the norm for you I'm afraid. Honestly, I find it sad. Right. That is why statements about how war is bad and mistakes happen are really just hollow platitudes. it assumes there is a strategy that is realistic (preventing islamic terrorism by occupying islamic countries with western militaries, essentially the major source of the problem to begin with) and 2) offering cheap propaganda about spreading freedom. Hollow platitudes? No, Andrew, that is the truth and you just don't like it. Thing is i have listened to many sides (soldiers who support the war, soldiers who don't, embedded journalists on the ground, unembedded journalists on the ground, afghan civilians, afghan government, western politicians, historians specializing in the area, etc..) - and I do have a very clear picture as to what is happening on the ground. The fact is the picture is terrible and the strategy is a failure, and the propaganda rings hollow. Given your statements here, I would say you don't have a very clear picture at all. A clear misunderstanding about what war is at the very least. Hence I don't accept any defense of the slaughter of civilians that assumes there is a legitimate strategy in place to begin with and these events cannot be prevented. I reject that fully and completely. No one is defending it, Andrew. I, among others, are simply explaining that these things will happen regardless of whether there is a strategy in place that you find legitimate or not.
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