[averkif]

That is such B/S and you should know better. No one is under any obligation to speak out against this or that. I was raised Catholic and am of partially Irish descent, I've never once apologized for the IRA.

And yes, I do think someone who is saying who thinks Islam has a right and good reason to be proud and that Muslims should hold their heads high is a bridge builder. Someone who is trying to prove to his fellows just what makes the U.S. great. It isn't our guns or bombs or economy or inherent to the land or to the people or to some divine spark or infallible Founders. What makes the U.S. great is its freedoms, and if we don't continue to practice those freedoms then there's nothing left worth preserving.

I want reasonable, strongwilled orthodox guys like Rolf to stand up and say "America, I'm not ashamed of my religion and I'm not going to be meek" now so that in 2030 or 2040 we'll have lots and lots of nice happy reform Muslims who drink alchohol and have premarital sex but consider themselves good members of their religion because they go to service every week, just like has happened with many Christians and Jews.

The whole point of America is that you don't assimilate by becoming "more American", there is no such thing, you assimilate by being able to get along in a pluralistic society. This Rolf guy seems to be trying to do that. You can't ask people to respect your differences if you don't respect there own after all, and this is America so I think it's reasonable for the Muslims living here to expect to be treated with equal rights and not held accountable for the policy in the countries that they've left or their parents left or that they were never at because we've had some Muslims here since the founding of the country.

And yeah, the U.S. did contribute to the cause of 9/11. Doesn't justify mass murder, but that doesn't change the fact that cause and effect are real things that exist no matter how much you don't want them to. We trained the Muj to fight the Sovs, and now the Muj is fighting us. I imagine whoever we train to fight the Muj will probably turn on us eventually too. And yes, a lot of the condition of the Middle East comes from Western petroleum diplomacy and before that colonialism.

Things interact with each other, and they don't care about your pride or your patriotism or any of that. The relationships exist and yes it makes good sense to acknowledge and try to be aware of them, in order to learn from your mistakes. Not even for moral purposes, just so less stuff bites you in the ass later.