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**offemyJuccete** · 08-29-2012, 09:09 AM

1) Afghanistan never mounted an attack against the West, AQ did with help of the Talibs.

.... much drivel deleted ....

Regards to Ahmad Shah Massoud from Wolf the German should you ever have the chance to meet him.

1) the attack was mounted from inside Afghanistan with the support and aid of the functioning Talban Government.

2) I will not call you a liar if you do not do the same to me. I was in Afghanistan a few days ago and am home on leave and will return there right after New Year’s Day. I do not stay in a hotel room but have traveled extensively around the country staying in several occasions with the local elders and other people of influence in local residences.

The place has changed since 2002.

A middle class is a grouping of people who have something to gain and something to lose. The vast majority of the Afghan population lives on a subsidence level with little or no hope of getting ahead in the long term. They typically take a very short sighted view of things. This is not a negative comment on their morals or intelligence but a rational outcome from their circumstances. They need to worry about tonight’s supper for their families not a long term look at what will be the best 5 or 10 years from now.

3)The middle ages comment is in regard to their oppressive religious society, lack of education subsidence agricultural system, poor infrastructure and extreme tribalism. Again it is an observation based on recent years on the ground and much interaction with ordinary Afghans.

I actually like the Afghan people. They have shown an exceptional ability to survive and in some cases thrive under terrible conditions. I don’t think that they are any smarter or less smarter than the vast majority of people worldwide who have not had the advantages (or disadvantages) of a formal education and good nutrition growing up.

Your references to western social customs is a straw man fallacy. A middle class is as I defined it above, not a set of western cultural practices that would never transfer to Afghan culture.

4) This is another straw man fallacy. I never sated the cause of the insurgency but stated that an indigenous insurgency has never been beaten by less than draconian force. What is needed is a planned and rational strategy that addresses all aspects of the problem. This means building schools, clinics, roads and other infrastructure, implementing micro finance programs to allow people to get started in self employment that is sustainable, load guarantees to allow big businesses to build factories in Afghanistan etc.

It will require the implementation of the rule of law where the courts cannot be bribed and bribes and corruption will not be a way of life. The incorruptibility of the true Taliban is one of their biggest appeals to the ordinary citizen.

It will require the creation of an educated population, including women. It will require the creation of the business climate with lines of credits, insurance and bonding that we take for granted in our society to facilitate business.

It will have to be done in accordance with the cultural environment that exists in Afghanistan.

It is not something that can be achieved in 18 months with another 30,000 troops. (Who incidentally will have nowhere to go as the majority of all bases are currently housing the maximum numbers of troops and support staff.)

5) The south is controlled by Taliban and they appear to be having an easy time controlling that part of the country.

By definition an indigenous insurgency is difficult to defeat. They simply have to hide their weapons and they are imposable to tell from the friendly population.

I do agree that ISI (Pakistan security forces) are a major influence in keeping the insurgency supported. Afghanistan has a valid claim on the North West Frontier Areas of Pakistan south of the Durand line and an unstable Afghanistan is in Pakistan’s best interests. This is simply another example of old colonial powers drawing borders on the map without regard for the tribal and ethnic groupings affected. It happened with the Kurdish lands in Iraq and Turkey as well as all over Africa and is still causing trouble 100 years later.

A lot of what the west refers to as Taliban is simply warlords, drug traffickers, common criminals and others who are looking for their best interests with little or no regard for the country as a whole.

A major military operation to “crush” the Taliban will be counterproductive. This sort of draconian measures will simply drive more of the population to support the Taliban. It plays right into the indigenous insurgency handbook, get the opposition to commit “atrocities” (or at least what you can call atrocities) and use this as a recruitment tool. Why do you think that the Taliban gave away the fuel on those trucks in Kunduz that the Germans had bombed? They wanted a lot of civilians and better civilian children to be killed if there was an airstrike so that the population turned against the ISAF forces.

Your plan would create more Taliban than it would kill, unless you plan on killing a lot of people.

08-29-2012, 09:09 AM	#26
offemyJuccete Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 426 Senior Member	1) Afghanistan never mounted an attack against the West, AQ did with help of the Talibs. .... much drivel deleted .... Regards to Ahmad Shah Massoud from Wolf the German should you ever have the chance to meet him. 1) the attack was mounted from inside Afghanistan with the support and aid of the functioning Talban Government. 2) I will not call you a liar if you do not do the same to me. I was in Afghanistan a few days ago and am home on leave and will return there right after New Year’s Day. I do not stay in a hotel room but have traveled extensively around the country staying in several occasions with the local elders and other people of influence in local residences. The place has changed since 2002. A middle class is a grouping of people who have something to gain and something to lose. The vast majority of the Afghan population lives on a subsidence level with little or no hope of getting ahead in the long term. They typically take a very short sighted view of things. This is not a negative comment on their morals or intelligence but a rational outcome from their circumstances. They need to worry about tonight’s supper for their families not a long term look at what will be the best 5 or 10 years from now. 3)The middle ages comment is in regard to their oppressive religious society, lack of education subsidence agricultural system, poor infrastructure and extreme tribalism. Again it is an observation based on recent years on the ground and much interaction with ordinary Afghans. I actually like the Afghan people. They have shown an exceptional ability to survive and in some cases thrive under terrible conditions. I don’t think that they are any smarter or less smarter than the vast majority of people worldwide who have not had the advantages (or disadvantages) of a formal education and good nutrition growing up. Your references to western social customs is a straw man fallacy. A middle class is as I defined it above, not a set of western cultural practices that would never transfer to Afghan culture. 4) This is another straw man fallacy. I never sated the cause of the insurgency but stated that an indigenous insurgency has never been beaten by less than draconian force. What is needed is a planned and rational strategy that addresses all aspects of the problem. This means building schools, clinics, roads and other infrastructure, implementing micro finance programs to allow people to get started in self employment that is sustainable, load guarantees to allow big businesses to build factories in Afghanistan etc. It will require the implementation of the rule of law where the courts cannot be bribed and bribes and corruption will not be a way of life. The incorruptibility of the true Taliban is one of their biggest appeals to the ordinary citizen. It will require the creation of an educated population, including women. It will require the creation of the business climate with lines of credits, insurance and bonding that we take for granted in our society to facilitate business. It will have to be done in accordance with the cultural environment that exists in Afghanistan. It is not something that can be achieved in 18 months with another 30,000 troops. (Who incidentally will have nowhere to go as the majority of all bases are currently housing the maximum numbers of troops and support staff.) 5) The south is controlled by Taliban and they appear to be having an easy time controlling that part of the country. By definition an indigenous insurgency is difficult to defeat. They simply have to hide their weapons and they are imposable to tell from the friendly population. I do agree that ISI (Pakistan security forces) are a major influence in keeping the insurgency supported. Afghanistan has a valid claim on the North West Frontier Areas of Pakistan south of the Durand line and an unstable Afghanistan is in Pakistan’s best interests. This is simply another example of old colonial powers drawing borders on the map without regard for the tribal and ethnic groupings affected. It happened with the Kurdish lands in Iraq and Turkey as well as all over Africa and is still causing trouble 100 years later. A lot of what the west refers to as Taliban is simply warlords, drug traffickers, common criminals and others who are looking for their best interests with little or no regard for the country as a whole. A major military operation to “crush” the Taliban will be counterproductive. This sort of draconian measures will simply drive more of the population to support the Taliban. It plays right into the indigenous insurgency handbook, get the opposition to commit “atrocities” (or at least what you can call atrocities) and use this as a recruitment tool. Why do you think that the Taliban gave away the fuel on those trucks in Kunduz that the Germans had bombed? They wanted a lot of civilians and better civilian children to be killed if there was an airstrike so that the population turned against the ISAF forces. Your plan would create more Taliban than it would kill, unless you plan on killing a lot of people.
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