[DeilMikina]

Again Arif2,
Was Allah not here first? Was he not always here? What did he created us from? Was it not existence/Be/Being/Been? And what is this?

"'And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth)." Surat Al-Mu'minun"

If Allah is almighty (ALL MIGHTY) then NONE CAN EXIST BUT HIM. The kalima is "La ilaha ilAllah" "there is no God but Allah" not "There is nothing that exists but Allah".

We're here at his discretion....he said exist and we became. Not disturbing just too simple for the complexities you believe maybe. I can't even reply to this without losing my good manners, so I will respectfully refrain. I'm sorry.

As far as Tariqahs, many from Morocco to Iran especially from our side.... So it's some tarqiahs in Morroco and Iran, not all of them, as you claimed.

I see that you separate and Islam...big up to Yahyah Harayah...I don't agree with his views but they are definitely nourishing. I don't even know who that is.

I don't separate the two...I respect nature because if I need Allah then it is obvious that i need all that he created...good, evil, life, death, food, water, clothing, shelter....nothing we have is by mystery.....this is where you and I differ. My apologies of accusing you of calling pantheism shirk. But you definitely don't know much about it. I didn't say it wasn't shirk either. It's not my call to make, I am not qualified for such a statement.

islam is both panentheistic and pantheistic....both are the same but pantheism is personal. Islam is pure Monotheism, alone and only. Any deviance from that is not Islam. Period.

Now you have said pantheists believe the universe is God? How so when what is termed as pantheism existed before the textbook definition? How so when many early pantheists knew nothing of an "universe"? Wikipedia said "universe". I said "creation". Your statement is invalid.

Like i have said, muslim use to say when people have seizures, that the person was possessed by a Jin...this is pantheism my friend. No, it's not. Allah is the one and only ilah. He is distinct from and separate from his creation. Everything and anything that occurs only occurs with his permission.

Now, please, research it, buy a few books, sit and talk with some Native Americans and African animists....then you will understand all that I say. So you're telling me, in order to understand Islam I need to go and sit with Mushriks? A'udhu billah...

Bro, your whole issue seems to be with the definition of "pantheism". I didn't make the definition, no one on this forum did either. If you have a problem with the definition talk to webster's or wikipedia or encyclopedia britannica.

With all due respect, I'm going to have to leave it at this. My intention was not to enter into a debate but merely prevent others from being misguided. I hope that I have done so.

Your views are your own and you alone are accountable for them. They are not the views of Ahlus Sunnah wa Al-Jama'ah and I doubt they are even the views of most Shi'a.

I do not think I continue on with this debate without delving into subjects that I am uncomfortable and unqualified to speak about, so I have to leave it at this. Up until now I feel I have been able to accurately respond to your posts with common knowledge, but you're delving into issues that are not appropriate for laymen to discuss.

I'm sorry, ansariag. This was certainly an interesting discussion and I hope perhaps you will find a more informed brother or sister to continue with .