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**fkjghfg** · 06-30-2010, 02:52 AM

I have not gotten my opinion from Barelwis; it is based on my own experiences. The Barelwi inclined are the overwhelming majority outside of the major cities (bear in mind that most Pakistanis do not live in Urban areas) and even within the cities, from my own experiences, they are the most numerous, if not the majority.

Regarding the numbers of Madrassahs and Masjids in a given city and the orientation of its ulema or management, how can that accurately reflect the orientation of the laymen in that area? What percentage of people in Pakistan, period, are Madrassah students? What percentage head Masaajid? That number is infintessimal and whatever evidence of the "Deobandiness" of an area that Madrassahs and Masjids attest to is applicable to that infintessimal number.

Certain areas are completely Rafidi. That doesn't mean they make up the majority. The media will try to sell you that they make up 20% of the population of Pakistan but that isn't true. Just because they put up a lot of signs and banners and take out parades doesn't make them the majority.

Same can be said about Barelwis. They do a lot of lighting and banners and all that, their one masjid with a huge replica of the Prophet's

dome stands out and nobody notices the 20 other small and big masjids in its vicinity.

How long have you lived in Pakistan? I don't think you're speaking from knowledge of the ground reality. A madrasah in any part of town yields much influence in its surroundings. Same can be said about masjids. Anyway, since no one has done a census on this - none of our "estimations" or guesses should be taken as facts. That's basically the point I'm trying to get across. The whole lie that Pakistan is majority barelwi is just an estimation and a guess of this sort. It's not scientific, there was no poll conducted. No one did anything, people just invented it out of thin air and started propagating as some fact.

So how would you go about making the distinction? For myself, if someone engages (or believes in the permissibility of) making Tawaaf to or Sajdah around the graves of the pious, affirms the Barelwi understanding of "Haazir wa Naazr" for the Rasul (peace be upon him), and engages in a multitude of other bidahs like burning incense at graves, subcontinent-style Mawlids, etc. he is a Barelwi even if he never heard the name since these are the hallmarks of the Barelwi "Maslak" or "Minhaaj". Do you have an alternative way of looking at it?

That's a fundamental mistake many people make, yes even Deobandi laypersons unfortunately make this mistake and end up looking like idiots in front of others. Many of these practices are openly condemned by Barelwis scholars, the books and fatwas of their Akabir like Ahmed Rida Khan are proof that they do not approve of these extreme practices such as making tawaf and sajdah of graves.

Those who do these things, smoke drugs and dance at the shrines do not identify themselves as Barelwi. This is no secret.

Barelwis though do the other things you have mentioned and they clearly identify themselves as "Ahl-e-Sunnat wal Jamat" and / or with Dawat-e-Islami.

06-30-2010, 02:52 AM	#13
fkjghfg Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 469 Senior Member	I have not gotten my opinion from Barelwis; it is based on my own experiences. The Barelwi inclined are the overwhelming majority outside of the major cities (bear in mind that most Pakistanis do not live in Urban areas) and even within the cities, from my own experiences, they are the most numerous, if not the majority. Regarding the numbers of Madrassahs and Masjids in a given city and the orientation of its ulema or management, how can that accurately reflect the orientation of the laymen in that area? What percentage of people in Pakistan, period, are Madrassah students? What percentage head Masaajid? That number is infintessimal and whatever evidence of the "Deobandiness" of an area that Madrassahs and Masjids attest to is applicable to that infintessimal number. Certain areas are completely Rafidi. That doesn't mean they make up the majority. The media will try to sell you that they make up 20% of the population of Pakistan but that isn't true. Just because they put up a lot of signs and banners and take out parades doesn't make them the majority. Same can be said about Barelwis. They do a lot of lighting and banners and all that, their one masjid with a huge replica of the Prophet's dome stands out and nobody notices the 20 other small and big masjids in its vicinity. How long have you lived in Pakistan? I don't think you're speaking from knowledge of the ground reality. A madrasah in any part of town yields much influence in its surroundings. Same can be said about masjids. Anyway, since no one has done a census on this - none of our "estimations" or guesses should be taken as facts. That's basically the point I'm trying to get across. The whole lie that Pakistan is majority barelwi is just an estimation and a guess of this sort. It's not scientific, there was no poll conducted. No one did anything, people just invented it out of thin air and started propagating as some fact. So how would you go about making the distinction? For myself, if someone engages (or believes in the permissibility of) making Tawaaf to or Sajdah around the graves of the pious, affirms the Barelwi understanding of "Haazir wa Naazr" for the Rasul (peace be upon him), and engages in a multitude of other bidahs like burning incense at graves, subcontinent-style Mawlids, etc. he is a Barelwi even if he never heard the name since these are the hallmarks of the Barelwi "Maslak" or "Minhaaj". Do you have an alternative way of looking at it? That's a fundamental mistake many people make, yes even Deobandi laypersons unfortunately make this mistake and end up looking like idiots in front of others. Many of these practices are openly condemned by Barelwis scholars, the books and fatwas of their Akabir like Ahmed Rida Khan are proof that they do not approve of these extreme practices such as making tawaf and sajdah of graves. Those who do these things, smoke drugs and dance at the shrines do not identify themselves as Barelwi. This is no secret. Barelwis though do the other things you have mentioned and they clearly identify themselves as "Ahl-e-Sunnat wal Jamat" and / or with Dawat-e-Islami.
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