DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Fajar/Isha and the Perpetual Twilight Issue

**eropiereetuekm** · 05-31-2009, 01:48 AM

The Fatwaas given viz-a-viz India/Pakistan don't scientifically apply to high latitude countries (generally) and also for the fact that Twilight angles vary greatly during Summer and Winter months.

Muhammad Odeh holds the view that 18 degrees (and this is shafaq ahmar according to him) is suitable everywhere. He has discussed this issue various times.

I wish it was easy for people to look when Isha/Fajr starts. The last time when some brothers did that in my place during last Ramadan, they started to make up their own calculations and came with around 11 degrees to determine Fajr. As a result, a big Fitna started simply because they did not have the knowledge of how to determine Fajr prayer. They called their Shaykh in Saudia and were reprimanded and were told that they should make up their fasts if they ate after the fajr time of the local calender.

Some interesting stuff which is written in that Yahoo group: Brother Odeh wrote:

What you are saying about the difference between Fajer and Isha could be correct not only because of the reason you mentioned, but there are other reasons some people assume. But again, you have to prove this! As for myself I didn't read any paper that concluded such issue, nor read any real experiment that proved this assumption! On the contrary all the real papers and experiments concluded that they are alike.

Well, minor source of light such as candle is negligible when you are not staring at it

! But being near a city is different story! Here in UAE, although we go to the desert 90 Kms away from the nearest city, but you might be surprised to know that the glare of Abu-Dhabi makes the limiting magnitude down to 5.5! And you can never see the beginning of the dawn from that location! Some people tried and at the end they admitted that it is not suitable area at all! Notice that they were 90 Kms away from Abu-Dhabi, which is small city on the global scale! Salam,

At 18 degrees depression, the zodiacal light "Fajer Katheb" is prominent and you will not miss it (at least from moderate latitudes)! It'll appear as big pyramid based on the horizon! See ( http://www.cloudbait.com/gallery/met...iacalLight.jpg ) And at this angle the astronomical dawn (Fajer Sadeq) starts to appear as very thin band based on the horizon. At least this what the majority agree on! However, there are some groups who claim that the angle 15 is the beginning of the astronomical twilight, and I've asked these people many times to provide any 'real' research or experiment that proves this, but none of them has shown any real thing! All what they show is a theoretical papers or unscientific experiment! Some of them say: "oh we went to the desert, so and so Kms away from the city" and when you ask them what was the limiting magnitude of the area that you did the observation from, they fail to answer you, or they might even ask you what the "limiting magnitude" is! I wonder how can such experiment considered authentic or valid when the people of the group lack the basic requirement to held such an experiment. You can NEVER do your twilight observation form an area that is NOT TOTALLY dark, and you can NOT tell how dark your location is without measuring the limiting magnitude! I'm a meteor observer, and I know what is the meaning of making observation for faint objects without specifying your limiting magnitude!

Moh'd I'm saying this because some people say that the angle 18 corresponds to the False Dawn, which is wrong! Personally I've observed the False Dawn tens of times from the desert, and I can confirm that the False Dawn appear 30-45 minutes before the Sun reaches the angle 18! Thank you for the post. Actually, since years I tend to prefer the angle 18! So far I didn't see any real scientific observation for the beginning and the end of the twilight which shows an angle other than 18! The experiment which you did lack a very important factor, which is the light pollution! You said that the light pollution was due north! Actually you can NEVER give an accurate judgment for the very first moment of the beginning of the astronomical twilight if you have a very slight light pollution! Actually even if the pollution was in west, then the eastern horizon will be affected! Not only because the physical effect but because the pollution from any direction will reduce the diameter of your pupil! You need about 20 minutes after exposure to the light in order to have a real dark adaption! This assumes that the light source disappears, but in your case it never disappear!

My whole point is simply.... In order to give an accurate judgment for the beginning/end of astronomical twilight, you MUST be totally away from any light pollution! Your report MUST give the limiting magnitude! If your limiting magnitude is less than about 6.2, then you are not in a dark location!

Unfortunately, all who did your experiment were in a light polluted location (even if it is minor), and this is why they ended up with the value 15 or even less! The only experiment which I heard about which was done from a real dark sky concluded the angle 18! It was done by Dr. Abdul Haq Sultan from Yemen. The exact location for his paper is: http://www.icoproject.org/pdf/sultan_2004.pdf

http://www.icoproject.org/eforum/sho...?p=189#post189 Brother Qamar Uddin:
Assalamualaikum Wa-Rahmatullahi Wa-barakatuh.

This is not a repeat of any previous emails, so please read the message to the end.

I understand from the experts that to observe true twilight angles for Fajar
(dawn) and Isha (dusk) prayer times, the sky must be free from all kind of light
pollutions.
http://www.icoproject.org/eforum/showthread.php?t=51

Therefore, I do not believe the town of Blackburn, UK (as stated on
http://moonsighting.com) fulfills that requirement.

I am very interested to do my own experiments to establish the angles as
described in the Prophetic literature (Ahadith), with the help of some UK scholars.

An an Electronics Engineering graduate (1983-86), I believe I am in a good
position to carryout the scientific measurements accurately. I will need some
help with what/how to do the necessary measurements, though (e.g. light
intensity?). I am expecting the twilight angles to be between 15 - 18 degrees
(after I record the times of the phenomenon in the field and then check the
angle, later).

My proposed location is somewhere near in Kielder Observatory, Northumberland,
which has been built on the darkest site in UK, away from any light pollutions.
http://www.kielder-observatory.org/sitedesc.php

Please could the astronomy experts on the ICOP mailing list respond to this email
and let me know if such an area in UK will fulfill the scientific requirement of
observing zodiac light (false dawn) and astronomical twilight (true dawn) angles?

Further details of the Kielder Observatory news reports/video links are give below.

PS.
Has anyone traveled to that part of the country and let me know if the Eastern
horizon/sea cost is easily visible? If I do not get any help from the experts, I
most probably will abandon the idea! So, apologies in advance if you don't hear
anything again from me on this issue - such is the sad state of affairs with us
these days.

Wassalam,

Qamar Uddin, UK Mufti Zubair Butt about the findings of the scholars in Blackburn who tried to observe Isha and Fajr over there, as mentioned at moonsighting.com:

Assalamualaikum,

Br Yusuf,

I salute your faith in the scholars who carried out the Blackburn observations but I am afraid I cannot share in it. I am not going to question their ability in this matter and nor is it my place to do so, but rather than just placing our faith in the scholars as you suggest, and not withstanding the objections other scholars have regarding their observations, I would rather see the full details of their observations before arriving at a judgement. Unfortunately there is scant info regarding this, especially regarding the atmospheric and weather conditions at the time of observation. The observations do not appear to have been made on a scientific basis with all relative factors considered.

I think we should always welcome further observations, which should be conducted in a proper scientific manner. Such observations should not be skewed by any bias or a desire to achieve a particular result. Rather, we should observe the relevant phenomena as it is and, if we find that it is unsuitable/impractical, consider what options are available to us to depart from that. Observations should not be geared to achieving a favourable result, as I fear has been the practice in the past, but should work towards discovering the true picture.

Wassalaam

Mufti Mohammed Zubair Butt
Institute of Islamic Jurisprudence
If you have joined the group, read it over here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ICOP/message/4453

05-31-2009, 01:48 AM	#23
eropiereetuekm Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 426 Senior Member	The Fatwaas given viz-a-viz India/Pakistan don't scientifically apply to high latitude countries (generally) and also for the fact that Twilight angles vary greatly during Summer and Winter months. Muhammad Odeh holds the view that 18 degrees (and this is shafaq ahmar according to him) is suitable everywhere. He has discussed this issue various times. I wish it was easy for people to look when Isha/Fajr starts. The last time when some brothers did that in my place during last Ramadan, they started to make up their own calculations and came with around 11 degrees to determine Fajr. As a result, a big Fitna started simply because they did not have the knowledge of how to determine Fajr prayer. They called their Shaykh in Saudia and were reprimanded and were told that they should make up their fasts if they ate after the fajr time of the local calender. Some interesting stuff which is written in that Yahoo group: Brother Odeh wrote: What you are saying about the difference between Fajer and Isha could be correct not only because of the reason you mentioned, but there are other reasons some people assume. But again, you have to prove this! As for myself I didn't read any paper that concluded such issue, nor read any real experiment that proved this assumption! On the contrary all the real papers and experiments concluded that they are alike. Well, minor source of light such as candle is negligible when you are not staring at it ! But being near a city is different story! Here in UAE, although we go to the desert 90 Kms away from the nearest city, but you might be surprised to know that the glare of Abu-Dhabi makes the limiting magnitude down to 5.5! And you can never see the beginning of the dawn from that location! Some people tried and at the end they admitted that it is not suitable area at all! Notice that they were 90 Kms away from Abu-Dhabi, which is small city on the global scale! Salam, At 18 degrees depression, the zodiacal light "Fajer Katheb" is prominent and you will not miss it (at least from moderate latitudes)! It'll appear as big pyramid based on the horizon! See ( http://www.cloudbait.com/gallery/met...iacalLight.jpg ) And at this angle the astronomical dawn (Fajer Sadeq) starts to appear as very thin band based on the horizon. At least this what the majority agree on! However, there are some groups who claim that the angle 15 is the beginning of the astronomical twilight, and I've asked these people many times to provide any 'real' research or experiment that proves this, but none of them has shown any real thing! All what they show is a theoretical papers or unscientific experiment! Some of them say: "oh we went to the desert, so and so Kms away from the city" and when you ask them what was the limiting magnitude of the area that you did the observation from, they fail to answer you, or they might even ask you what the "limiting magnitude" is! I wonder how can such experiment considered authentic or valid when the people of the group lack the basic requirement to held such an experiment. You can NEVER do your twilight observation form an area that is NOT TOTALLY dark, and you can NOT tell how dark your location is without measuring the limiting magnitude! I'm a meteor observer, and I know what is the meaning of making observation for faint objects without specifying your limiting magnitude! Moh'd I'm saying this because some people say that the angle 18 corresponds to the False Dawn, which is wrong! Personally I've observed the False Dawn tens of times from the desert, and I can confirm that the False Dawn appear 30-45 minutes before the Sun reaches the angle 18! Thank you for the post. Actually, since years I tend to prefer the angle 18! So far I didn't see any real scientific observation for the beginning and the end of the twilight which shows an angle other than 18! The experiment which you did lack a very important factor, which is the light pollution! You said that the light pollution was due north! Actually you can NEVER give an accurate judgment for the very first moment of the beginning of the astronomical twilight if you have a very slight light pollution! Actually even if the pollution was in west, then the eastern horizon will be affected! Not only because the physical effect but because the pollution from any direction will reduce the diameter of your pupil! You need about 20 minutes after exposure to the light in order to have a real dark adaption! This assumes that the light source disappears, but in your case it never disappear! My whole point is simply.... In order to give an accurate judgment for the beginning/end of astronomical twilight, you MUST be totally away from any light pollution! Your report MUST give the limiting magnitude! If your limiting magnitude is less than about 6.2, then you are not in a dark location! Unfortunately, all who did your experiment were in a light polluted location (even if it is minor), and this is why they ended up with the value 15 or even less! The only experiment which I heard about which was done from a real dark sky concluded the angle 18! It was done by Dr. Abdul Haq Sultan from Yemen. The exact location for his paper is: http://www.icoproject.org/pdf/sultan_2004.pdf http://www.icoproject.org/eforum/sho...?p=189#post189 Brother Qamar Uddin: Assalamualaikum Wa-Rahmatullahi Wa-barakatuh. This is not a repeat of any previous emails, so please read the message to the end. I understand from the experts that to observe true twilight angles for Fajar (dawn) and Isha (dusk) prayer times, the sky must be free from all kind of light pollutions. http://www.icoproject.org/eforum/showthread.php?t=51 Therefore, I do not believe the town of Blackburn, UK (as stated on http://moonsighting.com) fulfills that requirement. I am very interested to do my own experiments to establish the angles as described in the Prophetic literature (Ahadith), with the help of some UK scholars. An an Electronics Engineering graduate (1983-86), I believe I am in a good position to carryout the scientific measurements accurately. I will need some help with what/how to do the necessary measurements, though (e.g. light intensity?). I am expecting the twilight angles to be between 15 - 18 degrees (after I record the times of the phenomenon in the field and then check the angle, later). My proposed location is somewhere near in Kielder Observatory, Northumberland, which has been built on the darkest site in UK, away from any light pollutions. http://www.kielder-observatory.org/sitedesc.php Please could the astronomy experts on the ICOP mailing list respond to this email and let me know if such an area in UK will fulfill the scientific requirement of observing zodiac light (false dawn) and astronomical twilight (true dawn) angles? Further details of the Kielder Observatory news reports/video links are give below. PS. Has anyone traveled to that part of the country and let me know if the Eastern horizon/sea cost is easily visible? If I do not get any help from the experts, I most probably will abandon the idea! So, apologies in advance if you don't hear anything again from me on this issue - such is the sad state of affairs with us these days. Wassalam, Qamar Uddin, UK Mufti Zubair Butt about the findings of the scholars in Blackburn who tried to observe Isha and Fajr over there, as mentioned at moonsighting.com: Assalamualaikum, Br Yusuf, I salute your faith in the scholars who carried out the Blackburn observations but I am afraid I cannot share in it. I am not going to question their ability in this matter and nor is it my place to do so, but rather than just placing our faith in the scholars as you suggest, and not withstanding the objections other scholars have regarding their observations, I would rather see the full details of their observations before arriving at a judgement. Unfortunately there is scant info regarding this, especially regarding the atmospheric and weather conditions at the time of observation. The observations do not appear to have been made on a scientific basis with all relative factors considered. I think we should always welcome further observations, which should be conducted in a proper scientific manner. Such observations should not be skewed by any bias or a desire to achieve a particular result. Rather, we should observe the relevant phenomena as it is and, if we find that it is unsuitable/impractical, consider what options are available to us to depart from that. Observations should not be geared to achieving a favourable result, as I fear has been the practice in the past, but should work towards discovering the true picture. Wassalaam Mufti Mohammed Zubair Butt Institute of Islamic Jurisprudence If you have joined the group, read it over here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ICOP/message/4453
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