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**sensation** · 05-28-2012, 09:43 AM

Happy to answer. In my opinion, there is no *religious* reason for any state - states earn legitimacy from justice, and a mandate from the people whom they serve - and from the protection of basic human rights.

Remember Zionism was essentially a secular movement, started by another cultural Jew - Theodor Herzl, who didn't really speak Yiddish or Hebrew himself, he spoke German and Hungarian. To Herzl, and many others, the reason for a Jewish state was one of self-defense. After pogroms and growing anti-semitism in Europe, he sought a place where Jews could live together and protect each other and themselves.

Religious Zionists don't consider the modern state of Israel to be quite the same as the state that would exist when Moshiach comes. That will come when it comes. In the meantime, they must build towards it... so they think. Again, I'm not really religious, so I can't speak for them.

I'm not sure you understand what the neo-conservative movement is. So-called Christian Zionists are not neo-conservatives.

No, I don't approve of land-grabs at gun-point. Property rights are property rights - whoever owns the land is the owner, Jew or Gentile. People who are deprived of their land, in my country (USA) must be given recompense and/or due process of law. So it should be the case in Israel. I don't live there, nor do I participate in their judiciary, but I happen to believe they are far better at protecting property rights than any regional state and most states in the West. They are in a tough situation when so many want them dead - so they make security decisions I wish they didn't make and I also wish they didn't have to make them.

As for prophesied war between Jews and Muslims - remember, I'm not religious in the least. I consider religious texts to be metaphors, tales of wisdom, and sometimes outright fiction. I have Muslim friends and wouldn't touch a hair on their heads. Neither would they mine.

VisitingJewishGuy,

Even though you're more of a cultural Jew, I think I'm gonna have to ask this.

Jews are not allowed to have a state until the coming of the messiah. Current zionists movement "claim" to prepare a state for the coming of messiah (profiteering aside). If the state was supposed to be setup *after* the coming of the messiah, then wouldn't the current state of israel not be considered as the real state for Jews?

Jews were expelled from the area twice before historically. Some of the zionist proponents are actually atheist groups who made some big profits from the projects in israel. Neo conservative Christians on the other hand usher Jews to go back to the area as they believe the destruction of Jews would hasten the coming back of Jesus (Prophet Isa ) - though they would deny any responsibilities should anything happen. Well, land grabbing at gun points definitely would create bad bloods among the Muslims and the migrated Jews to the areas, and cycles of violence would create bigger flames each time.

Looking back at the historical event that happened during the two times expulsions, the Jews at the time didn't concentrate on their religion. Indeed when Khalifah Umar went to Jerusalem, the site for Temple Mount was a dump site.

Prophet Muhamad told us all that there'll be a war between Muslims and Jews in the area in the future. Looking at the trend, it's more or less like the first and second time Jews were expelled from the area, as if more and more Jews are forgetting their religion? So more or less it would be like a war between Muslims (who are steadfast in our religion ) and Jews (who are basically no longer practice their religion)?

What's your opinion on this?

Allah Knows Best.

05-28-2012, 09:43 AM	#26
sensation Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 366 Senior Member	Happy to answer. In my opinion, there is no religious reason for any state - states earn legitimacy from justice, and a mandate from the people whom they serve - and from the protection of basic human rights. Remember Zionism was essentially a secular movement, started by another cultural Jew - Theodor Herzl, who didn't really speak Yiddish or Hebrew himself, he spoke German and Hungarian. To Herzl, and many others, the reason for a Jewish state was one of self-defense. After pogroms and growing anti-semitism in Europe, he sought a place where Jews could live together and protect each other and themselves. Religious Zionists don't consider the modern state of Israel to be quite the same as the state that would exist when Moshiach comes. That will come when it comes. In the meantime, they must build towards it... so they think. Again, I'm not really religious, so I can't speak for them. I'm not sure you understand what the neo-conservative movement is. So-called Christian Zionists are not neo-conservatives. No, I don't approve of land-grabs at gun-point. Property rights are property rights - whoever owns the land is the owner, Jew or Gentile. People who are deprived of their land, in my country (USA) must be given recompense and/or due process of law. So it should be the case in Israel. I don't live there, nor do I participate in their judiciary, but I happen to believe they are far better at protecting property rights than any regional state and most states in the West. They are in a tough situation when so many want them dead - so they make security decisions I wish they didn't make and I also wish they didn't have to make them. As for prophesied war between Jews and Muslims - remember, I'm not religious in the least. I consider religious texts to be metaphors, tales of wisdom, and sometimes outright fiction. I have Muslim friends and wouldn't touch a hair on their heads. Neither would they mine. VisitingJewishGuy, Even though you're more of a cultural Jew, I think I'm gonna have to ask this. Jews are not allowed to have a state until the coming of the messiah. Current zionists movement "claim" to prepare a state for the coming of messiah (profiteering aside). If the state was supposed to be setup after the coming of the messiah, then wouldn't the current state of israel not be considered as the real state for Jews? Jews were expelled from the area twice before historically. Some of the zionist proponents are actually atheist groups who made some big profits from the projects in israel. Neo conservative Christians on the other hand usher Jews to go back to the area as they believe the destruction of Jews would hasten the coming back of Jesus (Prophet Isa ) - though they would deny any responsibilities should anything happen. Well, land grabbing at gun points definitely would create bad bloods among the Muslims and the migrated Jews to the areas, and cycles of violence would create bigger flames each time. Looking back at the historical event that happened during the two times expulsions, the Jews at the time didn't concentrate on their religion. Indeed when Khalifah Umar went to Jerusalem, the site for Temple Mount was a dump site. Prophet Muhamad told us all that there'll be a war between Muslims and Jews in the area in the future. Looking at the trend, it's more or less like the first and second time Jews were expelled from the area, as if more and more Jews are forgetting their religion? So more or less it would be like a war between Muslims (who are steadfast in our religion ) and Jews (who are basically no longer practice their religion)? What's your opinion on this? Allah Knows Best.
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