DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Fourth condition under which lying is permissible?

**Shipsyspeepay** · 03-10-2012, 01:26 PM

I don't have Imam al-Nawawi's book al-Tarkhis but i did find this narrative in his entry, أبو زرعة الرازي here:

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/s....php?ids=12013

أخبرنا ابن الخلال أخبرنا الهمداني ، أخبرنا السلفي ، أخبرنا ابن مالك ، أخبرنا أبو يعلى ، الحافظ ، سمعت محمد بن علي الفرضي ، سمعت القاسم بن محمد بن ميمون ، سمعت عمر بن محمد بن إسحاق الحافظ ، سمعت ابن وارة يقول : حضرت أنا وأبو حاتم عند وفاة أبي زرعة ، فقلنا : كيف تلقن مثل أبي زرعة ؟ فقلت : حدثنا أبو عاصم ، حدثنا عبد الحميد بن جعفر . وقال أبو حاتم : حدثنا بندار في آخرين ، حدثنا أبو عاصم ، حدثنا عبد الحميد ، ففتح عينيه ، وقال : حدثنا بندار ، حدثنا أبو عاصم ، أخبرنا عبد الحميد ، حدثنا صالح بن أبي عريب ، عن كثير بن مرة ، عن معاذ ، قال : قال رسول الله -صلى الله عليه وسلم- : من كان آخر كلامه : لا إله إلا الله وخرج روحه معه

It doesn't say Abu Abdillah Bin Warah nor Abu Hatim 'lying' or mentioning that they 'forget'.

Regardless even if the narration you have is also what is related then it still doesn't mean they were pretending,

This is just a parable, he admits he got confused regarding the narration, thats it. I don't know how that amounts to pretending. Also realise that at the beginning they didn't want to do Talqin so if they did hesitate (out of respect) that is the place they hesitated otherwise once they went to say the narration in front of Abu Zur'ah they got simply confused, by Allah's leave of course.

Maybe the brothers who have the full arabic narrative to this can give a better insight.

Wallahu A'lam.

and thank you for your reply.

You're right, it could very well be that they were genuinely confused by Allah’s SWT leave.

But, it’s hard to believe this was the case as narrating the hadith in order to remind their shaykh of the kalimah would be just as disrespectful if not more so. I think they purposely confused the chain of narration to get their shaykh to correct them and say the shahadah in the process. This is what these Sfers have understood as well. http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...te-the-Kalimah

Now, what about Hassan RA and Husain RA? They knew full well how to make wudhu when they requested the old man judge which one of them was incorrectly making wudhu. The plan was to make the old man indirectly realize his mistakes by seeing them both perform wudhu properly and it worked. So they did lie but only out consideration for the old man's honor. So perhaps 'lies' of this nature are actually good..wallahu a'lam.

EDIT - I really apologize. I don’t know if they would all agree with my point here. The OP in the thread said the students narrated 2 different chains. Even so though, I think it still could be considered ‘acting’ since what they did was planned and for the purpose of getting their Shaykh to intervene. Wallahu a’lam.

03-10-2012, 01:26 PM	#8
Shipsyspeepay Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 492 Senior Member	I don't have Imam al-Nawawi's book al-Tarkhis but i did find this narrative in his entry, أبو زرعة الرازي here: http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/s....php?ids=12013 أخبرنا ابن الخلال أخبرنا الهمداني ، أخبرنا السلفي ، أخبرنا ابن مالك ، أخبرنا أبو يعلى ، الحافظ ، سمعت محمد بن علي الفرضي ، سمعت القاسم بن محمد بن ميمون ، سمعت عمر بن محمد بن إسحاق الحافظ ، سمعت ابن وارة يقول : حضرت أنا وأبو حاتم عند وفاة أبي زرعة ، فقلنا : كيف تلقن مثل أبي زرعة ؟ فقلت : حدثنا أبو عاصم ، حدثنا عبد الحميد بن جعفر . وقال أبو حاتم : حدثنا بندار في آخرين ، حدثنا أبو عاصم ، حدثنا عبد الحميد ، ففتح عينيه ، وقال : حدثنا بندار ، حدثنا أبو عاصم ، أخبرنا عبد الحميد ، حدثنا صالح بن أبي عريب ، عن كثير بن مرة ، عن معاذ ، قال : قال رسول الله -صلى الله عليه وسلم- : من كان آخر كلامه : لا إله إلا الله وخرج روحه معه It doesn't say Abu Abdillah Bin Warah nor Abu Hatim 'lying' or mentioning that they 'forget'. Regardless even if the narration you have is also what is related then it still doesn't mean they were pretending, This is just a parable, he admits he got confused regarding the narration, thats it. I don't know how that amounts to pretending. Also realise that at the beginning they didn't want to do Talqin so if they did hesitate (out of respect) that is the place they hesitated otherwise once they went to say the narration in front of Abu Zur'ah they got simply confused, by Allah's leave of course. Maybe the brothers who have the full arabic narrative to this can give a better insight. Wallahu A'lam. and thank you for your reply. You're right, it could very well be that they were genuinely confused by Allah’s SWT leave. But, it’s hard to believe this was the case as narrating the hadith in order to remind their shaykh of the kalimah would be just as disrespectful if not more so. I think they purposely confused the chain of narration to get their shaykh to correct them and say the shahadah in the process. This is what these Sfers have understood as well. http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...te-the-Kalimah Now, what about Hassan RA and Husain RA? They knew full well how to make wudhu when they requested the old man judge which one of them was incorrectly making wudhu. The plan was to make the old man indirectly realize his mistakes by seeing them both perform wudhu properly and it worked. So they did lie but only out consideration for the old man's honor. So perhaps 'lies' of this nature are actually good..wallahu a'lam. EDIT - I really apologize. I don’t know if they would all agree with my point here. The OP in the thread said the students narrated 2 different chains. Even so though, I think it still could be considered ‘acting’ since what they did was planned and for the purpose of getting their Shaykh to intervene. Wallahu a’lam.
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