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**discountviagraman** · 01-05-2012, 07:15 AM

1. Free healthcare is not "free". It is extremely expensive, and it comes straight out of the paychecks of people. It is also not fair. Let's say there is someone who does mujahada in his life to lead a healthy lifestyle. That person refrains from unhealthy food, exercises, etc ... Does the government have the right to force him to pay to subsidize the healthcare of someone else who is a smoker, has unhealthy eating habits, doesn't exercise, .. etc?

Free as to the point of delivery for example visiting the doctor, or going to the hospital, we are not PHYSICALLY paying in monetary terms. And also what is to say that a healthy living person wont be afflicted with bad health at some point in his life; going by your logic then all people who eat oily foods are not suitable to receive care and attention?

2. Why is it the responsibility of government to pay people's healthcare bills and monetarily support those who are unemployed? Aren't individuals in the society already responsible for their neighbors? What if someone has limited funds, their neighbor is in trouble and they want to help them out. Now, the government steps in and forcibly takes their money and decides to spend it on someone else. That money, with which someone could have helped their neighbor - to whom they have duties, is now gone and cannot be used to help one's neighbor.
On the issue of unemployment, why is the government responsible? Why isn't that person responsible for himself, and those whom Allaah has given responsibility to - his family, neighboors, etc .. ? Let's say there is someone who leads a financially responsible lifestyle, who builds savings for the future, and is leads a slim lifestyle so that he is not dependent upon anyone if there are periods of unemployment etc ... Why is he forced to subsidize, for example, someone else who was reckless with their finances and spent everything they had without saving for the future? How is it fair for anyone to be *forced* into subsidizing his recklessness? Sure, individuals should be generous and help others out when they are down - even if it was the result of their previously unwise decisions. But what right does the government have to reach into your pocket and give your wealth to someone else?

Brother the only way you will be able to enforce a philanthropic society (in the literal sense) is by monitoring peoples activities, and checking the status of everyone in the neighbourhoods; this is contradicting your point about not becoming too socialist or Marxist in the ideology of the governance.
We all know Shariah is a faith based system, where the value is upon implementing the Laws of Allah swt but how well would this work in real time? Would a rich neighbour who is on a 50k job financially support his neighbour who has just lost there job? What if they are not Muslim?

And no brother I am not saying the Government has a right to do anything with your or my money, but is there a viable choice in order to stop people from starving?

3. Even if the government is given the responsibility of healthcare, welfare, etc ... Shouldn't citizens be given the option to opt-out if they want? Essentially, anything one gives that is more than zakat is nafl sadaqa - right? If citizens want to allow the government to distribute their sadaqa on their behalf, fine - but what right does the government have to forcibly take it from everyone? Shouldn't people have the freedom to direct their funds allocated for sadaqa to whomever they want?

Is it the role of government to force citizens into philanthropy, or is it the role of scholars to encourage citizens to spend on those needier than them?

Does Islamic governance advocate socialism, and redistribution of wealth? Is it the responsibility of an Islamic Government to mitigate the risk of an individual's personal (wise or unwise) choices by taking from others?

Honestly, I don't know the answers to these questions. I need to make a thread, lol.

Do you really believe that people will give out of the goodness of there hearts to other neighbours who are poor, helpless and destitute? It will happen on a small scale, but the underlying issues will still be there; the prevention of actually becoming trapped in a poverty cycle has to be first,

From what I know of Islamic History there is some evidence to point toward that the early Khilafah did indeed have some sort of social welfare system, whereby taxes would be COLLECTED and distributed to different departments and this included welfare/ benefits.

01-05-2012, 07:15 AM	#39
discountviagraman Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 457 Senior Member	1. Free healthcare is not "free". It is extremely expensive, and it comes straight out of the paychecks of people. It is also not fair. Let's say there is someone who does mujahada in his life to lead a healthy lifestyle. That person refrains from unhealthy food, exercises, etc ... Does the government have the right to force him to pay to subsidize the healthcare of someone else who is a smoker, has unhealthy eating habits, doesn't exercise, .. etc? Free as to the point of delivery for example visiting the doctor, or going to the hospital, we are not PHYSICALLY paying in monetary terms. And also what is to say that a healthy living person wont be afflicted with bad health at some point in his life; going by your logic then all people who eat oily foods are not suitable to receive care and attention? 2. Why is it the responsibility of government to pay people's healthcare bills and monetarily support those who are unemployed? Aren't individuals in the society already responsible for their neighbors? What if someone has limited funds, their neighbor is in trouble and they want to help them out. Now, the government steps in and forcibly takes their money and decides to spend it on someone else. That money, with which someone could have helped their neighbor - to whom they have duties, is now gone and cannot be used to help one's neighbor. On the issue of unemployment, why is the government responsible? Why isn't that person responsible for himself, and those whom Allaah has given responsibility to - his family, neighboors, etc .. ? Let's say there is someone who leads a financially responsible lifestyle, who builds savings for the future, and is leads a slim lifestyle so that he is not dependent upon anyone if there are periods of unemployment etc ... Why is he forced to subsidize, for example, someone else who was reckless with their finances and spent everything they had without saving for the future? How is it fair for anyone to be forced into subsidizing his recklessness? Sure, individuals should be generous and help others out when they are down - even if it was the result of their previously unwise decisions. But what right does the government have to reach into your pocket and give your wealth to someone else? Brother the only way you will be able to enforce a philanthropic society (in the literal sense) is by monitoring peoples activities, and checking the status of everyone in the neighbourhoods; this is contradicting your point about not becoming too socialist or Marxist in the ideology of the governance. We all know Shariah is a faith based system, where the value is upon implementing the Laws of Allah swt but how well would this work in real time? Would a rich neighbour who is on a 50k job financially support his neighbour who has just lost there job? What if they are not Muslim? And no brother I am not saying the Government has a right to do anything with your or my money, but is there a viable choice in order to stop people from starving? 3. Even if the government is given the responsibility of healthcare, welfare, etc ... Shouldn't citizens be given the option to opt-out if they want? Essentially, anything one gives that is more than zakat is nafl sadaqa - right? If citizens want to allow the government to distribute their sadaqa on their behalf, fine - but what right does the government have to forcibly take it from everyone? Shouldn't people have the freedom to direct their funds allocated for sadaqa to whomever they want? Is it the role of government to force citizens into philanthropy, or is it the role of scholars to encourage citizens to spend on those needier than them? Does Islamic governance advocate socialism, and redistribution of wealth? Is it the responsibility of an Islamic Government to mitigate the risk of an individual's personal (wise or unwise) choices by taking from others? Honestly, I don't know the answers to these questions. I need to make a thread, lol. Do you really believe that people will give out of the goodness of there hearts to other neighbours who are poor, helpless and destitute? It will happen on a small scale, but the underlying issues will still be there; the prevention of actually becoming trapped in a poverty cycle has to be first, From what I know of Islamic History there is some evidence to point toward that the early Khilafah did indeed have some sort of social welfare system, whereby taxes would be COLLECTED and distributed to different departments and this included welfare/ benefits.
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