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**mylittlejewelaa** · 01-05-2012, 04:58 PM

Wow... so you choose to DELETE my two posts. Even after I have written my sincere aim and thoughts. La Wallah, you are the best "brothers in Islam" I have ever seen. It is my fault for assuming that I might find some people to discuss Islam and the thoughts that I have, instead of thinking through the rest of it alone (look at my login -- dawaheed = D.A. my initials and 'waheed' = alone ---- )

I am not going to be apologetic about what I see regarding Islam, Hadeeth, Mathhabs -- if you truly created this "sunniforum" for discussion, you would be prepared to hear from those Sunni that are finding and learning. I am tough in believing everything I read; "just because it is written down does not mean it is true" is one of the first lessons I learned, and I apply it to everything.

And just so you guys know: I am 34 years old, born a Muslim in a Sunni (Malaki) family, and I lived my life between the Middle East, North Africa, and the United States -- and not ONCE did I consider Allah not to be above me, and that is why the Quran is the only exception I have every made to the 'rule' I have been taught. Believe me, throughout the years, the Quran has proven to me , and still does everyday, that it is truly the word of God. That is how the Shahada is my Eman. Not because it has been passed down from family, but because I have taken with full devotion and awareness of exactly what it means, fully aware and fully considering the option of completely rejecting it if it does not make sense in my heart. I was determined not to follow blindly.

And not once did the Quran did not make sense, and not once did I feel blinded while reading it, and not once did its words not fill my heart, and not once did I doubt that these are the words of Allah.

But since this forum has shown more and more that it will lock and delete counter thinking... I see that this is not the forum for exploring and learning; it is a forum for conforming and following.

Assalamu 3alaikum

===========================================
===========================================

And since I have it on my notepad, here AGAIN is the post that was deleted. Maybe someone might understand where my logic is coming from!

================================

You are not going to believe because you do not know what to believe. Your belief is relative to your intellect or shall I say relative moralism.

If you want to believe the Prophet Mohammad would say "that I have warned and commanded and prohibited things that are as important as what is in the Qur’aan, if not more so.", go right ahead.

I will never believe it. Here is why -- The Prophet would never put himself or his sayings above God and his Quraan.

The fact that the last fragment of that Hadeeth is included spoils the entire Hadeeth. You can't go around saying "yeah this part of the Hadeeth is messed up, but the rest of it is good -- we should listen to it!"

And will people stop saying that I am a Quranist or a rejector of Hadeeth every time I challenge a Hadeeth with some logic? If the Hadeeth makes sense and does not conflict with the Quran I have no problem with it! But the issue I have been posting is that Hadeeth does not supersede the Quran. The Quran is the only book that has not been altered or tainted by humans, where as the Hadeeths had two centuries of lingering undocumented until Bukhari and Muslim (and others, I only read these 2 for now) filtered and studied which would be correct and which would not be correct.

And people keep on saying something to the effect of '1400 years of study can't be wrong' --- you know who you sound like? You sound like the people of Kuraish when Mohammad first told them of Islam and they should not be worshiping idols; they said "we have been doing this for many generations like our fathers". Just because something becomes a norm does not make it part of Islam nor does it make it Sunna.

If the Prophet Mohammad (SAAW) was alive here today, YES we would follow his Sunna because it is right infront of us. But the fact is he was NOT alive when Islam got divided into two and he was NOT alive when the Hadeeth was written down.

And when Bukhari wrote the Hadeeth, the boast is that there were MANY Hadeeths that he filtered down... does that not imply that everybody was just yapping stories and linking them to the Prophet...?!

And from http://forums.*********************/...-hadiths-9733/

the total number of ahadith in the two 'Sahih's - without repetition - number roughly 2,980.

Abu Dawud reported 2,450 ahadith not found in the Sahihayn.

at-Tirmidhi reported 1,350 ahadith not reported by Abu Dawud, and not found in the Sahihayn.

an-Nasa'i reported 2,400 ahadith not reported in the four collections mentioned above.

So, the total number of ahadith reported in the 'Sunan' (of Abu Dawud, an-Nasa'i, and at-Tirmidhi) that are not reported in the two 'Sahih's number around 6,200.

So, the from the five collections mentioned above which attempted to collect the authentic ahadith gathered a total of 9,180 ahadith, most of them being weak.

Ibn Majah collected 600 ahadith not reported in the five collections mentioned above, with approximately 500 of those ahadith being weak.

Malik's 'Muwatta'' contains 50 ahadith that are not found in the collections mentioned above.

ash-Shawkani's 'Nayl al-Awtar' (which contains mostly ahadith well-known amongst the later scholars of Fiqh, and most of which are found in the 'Sunan' of ad-Daraqutni and the 'Mu'jam' of at-Tabarani) contains about 500 ahadith not found in the collections mentioned above.

The 'Musnad' of Ahmad bin Hambal contains about 1,500 ahadith not found in any of the collections mentioned above.

So, the total number of ahadith contained in all of the well-known collections are 11,830 in number, and - as mentioned earlier - about 4,400 of these are authentic.
And Allah Knows best.

What are all these numbers? Does it really stretch the mind to say that some of these might not be "authentic"?

And more:

Some interesting references to the numbers of Hadith, something I'm very interested in follow.

Ibn al-Salah narrated from al-Bukhari:

"I've memorized 100.000 sound Hadiths."

al-Bayhaqi narrated from Ahmad:

"From the Hadith some 700.000 are Sahih."

al-Zarkashi from Ibn Rahawayh:

"I've memorized 70.000 sound narrations, and 4000 forged ones."

From all these, you DON'T want one to say (as this is exactly what I am doing) "Ok, since I am trying to find Islam --- I will start with the Quran and make it the core of everything I believe. After which I will go to the Hadeeth and read through it --- and I will know which are correct and which are not, because I have made the core of my belief the Quran."

In the end, it is NOT rejecting Hadeeth --- it is rejecting 1) that ALL Hadeeth is true, 2) that Hadeeth is EQUAL to the Quran.

01-05-2012, 04:58 PM	#7
mylittlejewelaa Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 605 Senior Member	Wow... so you choose to DELETE my two posts. Even after I have written my sincere aim and thoughts. La Wallah, you are the best "brothers in Islam" I have ever seen. It is my fault for assuming that I might find some people to discuss Islam and the thoughts that I have, instead of thinking through the rest of it alone (look at my login -- dawaheed = D.A. my initials and 'waheed' = alone ---- ) I am not going to be apologetic about what I see regarding Islam, Hadeeth, Mathhabs -- if you truly created this "sunniforum" for discussion, you would be prepared to hear from those Sunni that are finding and learning. I am tough in believing everything I read; "just because it is written down does not mean it is true" is one of the first lessons I learned, and I apply it to everything. And just so you guys know: I am 34 years old, born a Muslim in a Sunni (Malaki) family, and I lived my life between the Middle East, North Africa, and the United States -- and not ONCE did I consider Allah not to be above me, and that is why the Quran is the only exception I have every made to the 'rule' I have been taught. Believe me, throughout the years, the Quran has proven to me , and still does everyday, that it is truly the word of God. That is how the Shahada is my Eman. Not because it has been passed down from family, but because I have taken with full devotion and awareness of exactly what it means, fully aware and fully considering the option of completely rejecting it if it does not make sense in my heart. I was determined not to follow blindly. And not once did the Quran did not make sense, and not once did I feel blinded while reading it, and not once did its words not fill my heart, and not once did I doubt that these are the words of Allah. But since this forum has shown more and more that it will lock and delete counter thinking... I see that this is not the forum for exploring and learning; it is a forum for conforming and following. Assalamu 3alaikum =========================================== =========================================== And since I have it on my notepad, here AGAIN is the post that was deleted. Maybe someone might understand where my logic is coming from! ================================ You are not going to believe because you do not know what to believe. Your belief is relative to your intellect or shall I say relative moralism. If you want to believe the Prophet Mohammad would say "that I have warned and commanded and prohibited things that are as important as what is in the Qur’aan, if not more so.", go right ahead. I will never believe it. Here is why -- The Prophet would never put himself or his sayings above God and his Quraan. The fact that the last fragment of that Hadeeth is included spoils the entire Hadeeth. You can't go around saying "yeah this part of the Hadeeth is messed up, but the rest of it is good -- we should listen to it!" And will people stop saying that I am a Quranist or a rejector of Hadeeth every time I challenge a Hadeeth with some logic? If the Hadeeth makes sense and does not conflict with the Quran I have no problem with it! But the issue I have been posting is that Hadeeth does not supersede the Quran. The Quran is the only book that has not been altered or tainted by humans, where as the Hadeeths had two centuries of lingering undocumented until Bukhari and Muslim (and others, I only read these 2 for now) filtered and studied which would be correct and which would not be correct. And people keep on saying something to the effect of '1400 years of study can't be wrong' --- you know who you sound like? You sound like the people of Kuraish when Mohammad first told them of Islam and they should not be worshiping idols; they said "we have been doing this for many generations like our fathers". Just because something becomes a norm does not make it part of Islam nor does it make it Sunna. If the Prophet Mohammad (SAAW) was alive here today, YES we would follow his Sunna because it is right infront of us. But the fact is he was NOT alive when Islam got divided into two and he was NOT alive when the Hadeeth was written down. And when Bukhari wrote the Hadeeth, the boast is that there were MANY Hadeeths that he filtered down... does that not imply that everybody was just yapping stories and linking them to the Prophet...?! And from http://forums.*********************/...-hadiths-9733/ the total number of ahadith in the two 'Sahih's - without repetition - number roughly 2,980. Abu Dawud reported 2,450 ahadith not found in the Sahihayn. at-Tirmidhi reported 1,350 ahadith not reported by Abu Dawud, and not found in the Sahihayn. an-Nasa'i reported 2,400 ahadith not reported in the four collections mentioned above. So, the total number of ahadith reported in the 'Sunan' (of Abu Dawud, an-Nasa'i, and at-Tirmidhi) that are not reported in the two 'Sahih's number around 6,200. So, the from the five collections mentioned above which attempted to collect the authentic ahadith gathered a total of 9,180 ahadith, most of them being weak. Ibn Majah collected 600 ahadith not reported in the five collections mentioned above, with approximately 500 of those ahadith being weak. Malik's 'Muwatta'' contains 50 ahadith that are not found in the collections mentioned above. ash-Shawkani's 'Nayl al-Awtar' (which contains mostly ahadith well-known amongst the later scholars of Fiqh, and most of which are found in the 'Sunan' of ad-Daraqutni and the 'Mu'jam' of at-Tabarani) contains about 500 ahadith not found in the collections mentioned above. The 'Musnad' of Ahmad bin Hambal contains about 1,500 ahadith not found in any of the collections mentioned above. So, the total number of ahadith contained in all of the well-known collections are 11,830 in number, and - as mentioned earlier - about 4,400 of these are authentic. And Allah Knows best. What are all these numbers? Does it really stretch the mind to say that some of these might not be "authentic"? And more: Some interesting references to the numbers of Hadith, something I'm very interested in follow. Ibn al-Salah narrated from al-Bukhari: "I've memorized 100.000 sound Hadiths." al-Bayhaqi narrated from Ahmad: "From the Hadith some 700.000 are Sahih." al-Zarkashi from Ibn Rahawayh: "I've memorized 70.000 sound narrations, and 4000 forged ones." From all these, you DON'T want one to say (as this is exactly what I am doing) "Ok, since I am trying to find Islam --- I will start with the Quran and make it the core of everything I believe. After which I will go to the Hadeeth and read through it --- and I will know which are correct and which are not, because I have made the core of my belief the Quran." In the end, it is NOT rejecting Hadeeth --- it is rejecting 1) that ALL Hadeeth is true, 2) that Hadeeth is EQUAL to the Quran.
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